Warrios of Chaos v. Beastmen

With Labor day looming, we decided to have another 3K game. I tried some new stuff.

Typically when I design an army, I start with the stuff that is guaranteed to go in...Shaggy the Shaggoth, some Knights, some more Knights, a chariot...then I put in a character or two and fill in around it.

So this would prove to be a shocking army. Nowhere in sight would there be Shaggy or a chariot.

There would be a 50 strong horde of Corn Scythes (Marauders with full command, great weapons and mark of khorne), 36 Corn Threshers (Chaos Warriors w/full command, hand weapon and shield, mark of khorne and some banner...probably against shooting?).

What is shocking is...this is what I built the army around.

I then included two Knight units, one fully 15 strong, the Amaizeing Knights (get the "subtle" corn reference?) and the other 7 strong. These would allow me to protect my flanks and, once my infantry pulled the enemy into combat, fulfill the shock cavalry role and blast the enemy in the flank.

Also, by putting in a Jugger riding dude and my typical BSB build, they would start the game with a rank...

I finished off with 2 wizards; one Vilitch the Curseling, who I wanted to try out, the other a humble level one with Shadow? Whatever lore has Miasma as the signature. He was also packing the Infernal Puppet and Channeling Staff.

Across the field would be the Beastmen. He had 2 units of Gors ranked up, 6 Minotaurs, and some nasty characters like Doombulls, a couple Bray Shamans, and 2 Gorgons. He also had a couple of Ambushing units.

Now, the reason I usually take Shaggy is he is really all I have to deal with multiple wound tough things like the Gorgons. In this game...I would need Magic and luck.

On top of this, the field was full of special terrain. In my deployment zone alone we had a Haunted Mansion, Scree hill, and Arcane Ruins. In the center of the field was a Temple of Skulls.

We had rolled up the Honor and Glory scenario and with a breaking point of three, this would take a while; his General and 6 standards gave him a fortitude of 8, as opposed to my mere 7.

My strategy was simple and appropriately chaotic. Find enemy. Smash face. Rinse, repeat.

To deal with the Gorgons I intended to devote large quantities of Magic as I did not have much faith in the abilities of my troops.

Warriors of Chaos Turn 1

I moved enough forward to perhaps tempt him into charging with a low chance of making it into contact. With no shooting, time for magic.

With 2 Wizards, one with the channeling staff and hanging out by the Arcane Ruins, I had 5 chances to channel on a 6 and one on a 5. It started well as I rolled a 10 for Winds and channeled 2.

This, by the way, would be the last time I successfully channeled in the entire battle, despite having 6 chances per turn. I figured it up and this means I was 6 short of expected power dice over the course of the battle.

On the bright side...in 8th, that does not mean I get nothing back from my investment in magic. It actually still did stuff...

Such as on this turn, I cast Infernal Great Way on his Gorgon on my right flank with Irresistible Force, doing about 3 wounds and modifying the miscast to a harmless 7, which ended the phase.

Beastmen Turn 1
He was able to bring one unit on my left flank, threatening my Puppet/channeling Wizard. Grr. His other unit I got to choose and just had him come on on his own edge.

Otherwise he just generally made a general advance. I blocked his good magic.


Warriors of Chaos Turn 2
I now had a conundrum. His big nasty unit of several Minotaurs and a couple characters (just next to the hill) flanked by the Gorgon were well set up to charge my Knights. It was an unlikely charge...I would need an 8 to reach him. But at the same time, better to get the charge than to get counter charged and take all those impact hits.

I climbed the temple with my Corn Threshers and took a chance with my champion, who got very lucky and improved his strength to a whopping 7. Not bad for a core infantry champ. The Corn Scythes advanced on the left with the Knights advancing in support, carefully avoiding the Haunted Mansion.

My foot wizard then failed to pass his March Leadership test and I barely got out of line of sight of the Beastmen.

My charge hit home.

Now, the problem here is...that Gorgon looks likely to flank charge my Knights. I do not like that much. So I will try Infernal on him again. But first, I force the Gors to take a panic test. They roll something like a 4 and pass easily. Bummer.

I was hoping to force a panic check, have them fail and run off and thus keep my juicy channeling post and Infernal Puppet carrier out of harms way as he had no shooting. A failed panic test would most likely send them scuttling right off the field and thus keep my back lines safe. Good strategy, good execution, but you still do not always get the desired result...

Though the inevitable Infernal Gateway was cast successfully. And killed the Gorgon.

Unfortunately, I forgot Vilitch's ability or would have had 4 more power dice, the ones he unsuccessfully tried to dispel with, which would have instantly seen me cast Treason on said Gor ambushers...

The close combat was epic. His doombull accepted my unit champion's challenge. He wounded the champ 3 times. I saved two of them.

This, by the way, would be the only two armor saves I passed. Not just in the combat...in the entire game. More on this later.

I then put a hurting on him, slaying every Minotaur and a hero, while taking back a further 5 casualties myself. Something like 20 total wounds dealt out between us. It was awesome.

And unsurprising when he broke and ran a whopping 7". Of course, all I had were Knights, so you know I had no chance of catching such a massive roll as I rolled my typical 2/2/1 to follow all of 4".


Beastmen Turn 2
Sometimes an unlucky thing...such as rolling a disappointing pursue distance...can prove to be a good thing. Liam was forced into a difficult choice. He set up to receive my charge with his Doombull/hero and set up a nice counter-charge with his hilltop Gors.

However, I pointed out to him...since I had lost 6 Knights when his Doombull was limited to just one, I was far more likely to charge the Gors next to me since I would have their flank. This possibility was a result of my poor pursuit roll.

So he was forced to close with my Marauder Horde/Chaos Warrior blocks.

So he then pulled up his chariot and circled his remaining Gorgon to flank my Marauder horde.




Warriors of Chaos Turn 3 or the Perils of being lazy
From my viewpoint, the gap between his heroes of doom and the forward sitting Gors was easily large enough for me to go after his Bray Shaman.

Now, tactically this was a huge mistake...to win the scenario, I needed to off his General and one unit of Gors. But having seen the carnage he wrought and fearing I could not hurt his doombull, I declared the charge on the Shamans.

Unfortunately, the gap was an optical illusion....no way of making it happen without clipping the Minotaur hero. He kindly offered to let me target the Doombull instead but I took it as a failed charge.

Speaking of failed...I would still need a "9" to make it into contact with my Marauders so I did not want to charge...and promptly failed the Leadership check, forgot I was allowed a re-roll and had to charge...which then succeeded and because they were going to have to charge, I charged my second knights into his Gorgon.

Not to feel left out, the Corn Threshers also elected to charge.

To my surprise, the Chaos Lord on Juggernaut did quite well, rocking the Gorgon for about 3 wounds and the Knights finished it off.


This time I remembered I had to go last due to Great Weapons with the Marauders. My Warrior champ handily dispatched the Gor champ, and the other three Warriors did a couple of casualties.

The Gors unleashed their fury solely on the Marauders, who with T3 and no armor were pretty soft and squishy, and the Gors did okay, felling about 6 of them.

Okay is a relative term...the Marauders unleashed 41 S5 attacks. 6 casualties checks in significantly less than the 14 or 15 that I inflicted. He had 4 shots at Insane courage...none passed, he broke, and the Doombull was not his general...which meant the game was over. He had one standard left.


Just for fun we played his combo charge on the Knights. Sure enough, the Doombull went all berserk, killing about 5 of them single-handed and the other character killed another. Out of I think 6 attempts, I saved zero.

On the other hand, I did kill the single hero and a few of the Gors.

Recap
Again the game fulfilled...indeed, exceeded expectations. We had a couple of clashes where there were multiple casualties on both sides. Magic was fearsome and actually part of the game instead of "Oh, you cast successfully? I dispel."

On the dark side...

I really, really like the Warriors of Chaos. They are very deadly, capable of inflicting great quantities of damage. It is one of their two strengths that set them apart.

Very few armies can put out as many attacks that have a probability of causing wounds on such a narrow frontage.

Their other strength lies in their great armor. Knights with a 1+ and Warriors with a 3+ mean I should be very, very durable.

What gets annoying is having 1/2 of my strengths mean absolutely nothing. Between spells, war machines, and whatnot, it feels like about half the time someone inflicts harm on my model, no armor save is allowed.

Then, when it is allowed, I very, very seldom make it whether modified or not. In this game I think I had 12 attempted saves and passed none of them.

That is pretty discouraging. What is the point to having good armor if it never matters? I seldom get a chance to save in the first place, the ones I do get are usually heavily modified, and regardless of whether it is 2+ or 6+, I make them at a rate far less than should happen.

At some point, it becomes nonsensical to play an armor where half the bonuses are invalidated. It would be nice to have some shooting, to have a way to deal with fliers/monsters/war machines that was reliable, or to have the army work the way it should.

To be sure, I have been able to manipulate the combats so that I usually still enter with and leave with an advantage...but I am successful because I plan to lose as a casualty every model the opponent wounds since I know I will never save anywhere near statistically accurate numbers of models.

The funny part of Warhammer is people typically notice the strengths of other armies while discounting their own. It is no less true of the WoC.

For me, their strengths have narrowed to one; I can put out very high quantities of S4 or S5 attacks in a relatively narrow frontage. The saves are irrelevant since they have no impact.

It is mentally wearing having to defend against shooting, magic, monsters, fliers, and really only be equipped to deal with the magic...in that I am well equipped.

Yes, I recognize the irony of having a sparkling win-loss record and being disappointed with the performance of the army. But it is winning more because I know how to use the offensive capability than because of the theoretical advantages.

When your second biggest advantage...survivability...is rendered impotent, it really means nothing. And that is just n0t cool.

So beware the forthcoming cunning plans and deadly alterations. If armor means nothing...why waste time with it?

8th Edition Inaugral Battle:5k WoC v. 2500k Skaven/Bretonnians

I had been greatly looking forward to the 8th edition, and the single biggest reason is what many people (myself included) incorrectly call the "step-up rule". That change alone makes Marauders and Chaos Warriors worth taking.


But the old problem remained. I still despised...and continue to despise to the point I have not yet started on tomorrow's list...building army lists. It bores and annoys me.

So I decided I wanted to use Galrauch AND my flying D-Prince, so I chose 5K, got Liam and Kev to throw together 2500 points apiece, and off we went.

Now, although the points levels are even, I have a couple advantages in this format and a couple disadvantages.

Advantage one: I have 1250 points to spend on lord-level characters, they have but 625.
Advantage 2: I have a unified force theoretically designed to work with itself. They have two distinct forces not designed to have synergies with each other.

Disadvantage: against just one army, I know how to handle the elite sections of the army. With two separate armies, I will most likely be facing tough, hard-hitting units more spread out than normal.


As the scenario required them to set up first, it allowed me to hastily build my battle plan. I would use Magic, Marauders, Knights and the Shaggoth to fend off the skaven while the bulk of my army dealt with the Bretonnians. I would then swing over those forces, roll up the skaven flank and walk away talking about my greatness....

Alternatively, the larger numbers of skaven forces, combined with their mighty monsters and war machines could roll up my left flank, I could get clogged up in the middle and end up being flanked/assaulted from behind my lines and bemoan my stupidity (as opposed to granting credit to the greatness of Kev and Liam's battle plan...)


By the way, click on the picture above. Check out his VERY creative h-pit abomination scratch built from bits. Looks like the Loch Ness monster I think.

The brets asked for the blessing, so I got turn 1.

Warriors of Chaos turn 1
On the left I was playing a stalling game, so made at best a modest advance. In the center, I had a trap set up with a small unit of Knights ready to flank any Brets who moved into the middle while my block of 40 (!) Chaos Warriors locked down the middle. My non-fast cavalry Marauder Horsemen would go after the War machines, allowing my big block of Chaos Knights to sweep around and protect the flank of the Warriors.

Seeing his 5 Peasant Men at Arms on horses, I figured the 10 Marauder horsemen with light armor and shield would have an easy time with them and declared the charge. I needed to roll a "6" by rolling 3d6 and choosing the highest two...and promptly rolled a 4. Which meant they moved a whopping 2".

This meant to protect my flanks I had to slow everyone else's advance in the center and my Chaos Knights would be locked into dangerous area, unable to maneuver.

Battle plans are made to alter. One bad roll will not wreck it.

I flew the D-prince up to his right flank with a perfect shot at several units.

For magic, I rolled a "5" and a "1"...meaning I had one more power die than they had...then they channelled 2 additional dispel dice and I scored zero, so they had more Dispel dice than I had power dice.

I put all my eggs in one basket and threw all 6 at the Purple Sun big template. If I got irresistible force, sending that big template through his Knights of the Realm, Grail Knights, peasant bowmen and, if lucky, two trebuchets and several Skaven war machines would be devastating.

Of course, I could also simply fail to achieve the casting value...

On the left, the cannon dropped the template on top of his 5 Jezzails, a weapon I truly fear.

I was fortunate to roll a "hit" so one was under the template and died. The other 4, I just needed a "2" to wound. So I rolled 4d6...and for the second consecutive game, rolled 4 "1"s, slaying zero jezzails.

So the first round was...well..disastrous. I was out of position, did no damage of note, and he was in great shape.


Skaven/Bretonnian Turn 1
His men at arms charged my Marauder horsemen. This was probably a good move in 7th edition...not so much in 8th.

Conversely, seeing my Knights ready to flank him, he did NOT charge my Chaos Warriors with his Knights of the realm. In 7th...probably good idea again as I would have removed his rank bonuses and crushed him on my turn. In 8th...he really needed to get the strength bonus for his lances.

On the other flank there was a general advance.

They channeled a few dice, had about 5 more power dice. I had to use my one scroll to stop his plague spell that would have cost me about 34 marauders had it gone through. That let Liam put regeneration on his peasants.

They also shot down a few Marauders...I fail my first 4 save attempts, all needing 5+.

He manages a wound on my Marauder Horsemen. No problem, But I then unleash the pain and put down all 5 of his men at arms and over-run into the peasants behind.




Warriors of Chaos Turn 2
I have a tough choice. I have a pretty unlikely charge on his Knights of the Realm, a more likely charge on his Grail Knights. If I charge the peasants, I am virtually certain to make it and unleash a huge amount of carnage which should allow me to overrun into their artillery park....but if something goes wrong, I have presented my flank to Grail Knights. This is seldom a good idea...

Shaggy charges his abomination, my Marauder Horde charges...I dunno, skaven clanrats?

Magic goes about the same. I roll a 5 and 1 again. They channel 2, I channel zero. For the second consecutive time, I have fewer power dice than they have dispel. So I go the big Purple Sun rout.

This time it works. Irresistible force. And then...it misfires, lands on my wizard and wounds him, scattering away from their battle lines. Then I roll snake eyes for the miscast and a 2 for Infernal Puppet...fortunately, I am not thrown into the warp, but that was...well...not good.

Time for shooting. After my colossal whiff on turn one, I am expecting good things. I do not get them as the cannon blows up, and I roll a whopping 16" for distance other units are wounded on.

By the time we are done taking wounds from the blow-up I have lost marauders, wounds on Shaggy and a wizard, he has taken a couple on the abomination and a couple clanrats.

A quick points count: I have done 40% wounds to my best wizard, half wounds to another wizard, 33% to my Shaggoth, and killed my own cannon. They have slain I think 4 Marauders at this point...I vote for me as their MVP.

On the bright side, it also killed 3 Jezzail members, and the other would spend the next 4 (!) turns fleeing off the board....

Well, close combat is the key for the Warriors of Chaos. Forgetting great weapons no longer go first on the charge, I inflict mayhem on his clanrats, slaying 13 of his guys. He attacks back, kills 2...and then rolls Insane Courage.

My Warriors cause 13 wounds to his peasants, he saves 3 with the blessing/regenerate. The Marauders and their horse kill 8 more. I am happy. I have had two epic combats that offset my horrific shooting and magic. I rout him.

I then roll horribly and fail to catch him...but it does move my Marauder horsemen to where it seems like an illegal charge in 8th as his Grail Knights, to hit my juicy Chaos Warriors would have to wheel to get around them, but that wheel would lessen the number of troops he got in combat...so I was perhaps fortunate to have awful pursuit rolls...

Skaven/Bretonnian Turn 2

He charges his plague furnace into my Marauder horde.

He gets off the Skaven plague spell, killing 17 Marauders.


The combat is brutal as I do a number on his clanrats, his Furnace does a number on my Horde, but I win the combat. He is down to ONE clanrat by now...

Warriors of Chaos Turn 3

the block of 10 Knights has his Doom Wheel in front of it and charges. I again have a spell dice deficit, but get Infernal Gateway off irresistibly, doing a few wounds to a war machine.

(fair warning; about this point I stopped taking notes so...well...who knows what REALLY happened after this..)

The Knights just barely kill the Doom wheel and overrun into some clan rats or plague monks or whatever. My Warriors go after his Knights of the Realm.

His Grail Knights charge my Knight block in the flank...the key moment in the game.

This is his best Knights, bolstered by their general, getting a flank charge (reducing my armor save by one) with S6 hits on my best unit. My Marauder Horde is dying, the Shaggoth is odds on to die to the Abomination, and magic,...well, for the first 4 turns he had more Dispel Dice than I had Power Dice.

But then something happened...he did indeed put down a couple Chaos Knights. But in return I kill all 7 Plague Monks and kill his Battle Standard Bearer. I win the combat and he epically fails his Leadership roll...not a huge shock as his 2 ranks were easily countered by my BSB/War banner/more kills. He flees a whopping 5"...and I pursue a whopping 4".

My Chaos Warriors run his Knights of the Realm.

Shaggy kills the Abomination while having just 1 wound remaining himself. And Kev promptly rolls a 6 to bring it back and gets fully 4 wounds. Uh-oh...

So now we have an interesting situation. On the left flank I have a foot wizard, 5 Knights, and 1 wound remaining on my Shaggoth. He has the Abomination, some skaven clanrats, the plague furnace, and a couple other miscellaneous units.

meanwhile, on the right I have 35ish Chaos Warriors, 8 or 9 Chaos Knights, another unit of 5 knights, a dragon, and D-prince...so we have done the classic Greek maneuver of each shattering the right flank of the other.

From here on it got bloody (as if, you know, the hundreds of casualties already dealt were not...) as there were charges, counter charges, counter/counter charges...

This just in. His Skaven general with something like a bajillion I9 or 10 attacks allowing no armor save is bad, bad jujupe. He tore up a unit of Knights and everything else he touched.

But I overran their artillery park and by the end it was obvious the game was going to be some sort of Chaos victory.

Ironically, I had one epic charge left where I failed a LD test with re-roll to restrain, thus forcing my corny knights (mark of khorne) to make an unfavorable charge on my 6th turn. I dealt out something like 17 casualties...as Fixed Dice pointed out, had I done just 16, he would have passed his test instead of getting overrun.

He paid me back, killing my BSB with magic when I failed my Initiative test which meant my Knights broke instead of being stubborn with a reroll....

He also wiped out everything I had on the left, including his Abomination taking out my Shaggoth and wizard.

So the epic blood bath ended.

Bretonnia was all but wiped out, with only the peasant bowmen hanging out on my left flank alive.

Conversely, almost all the Skaven were alive.

I started the game with 20 Knights and 2 Knight heroes and an exalted hero on juggernaut. At the end of the game I had 2 Knights left of all that...his Abomination withstood my 5 S7 attacks without taking a wound and slew the jugger rider on turn 1 or 2, killed the Shaggoth, and his clanrats did for 10 more Knights. the others fell to Brets and Magic.

Reflections

Wee totaled the points. They scored something like 2300 points, I scored about 3500 or so.

It was great fun. Much of my conjecture was backed up. The "remove casualties from the back rank" rule makes, to me, this game 1000000% better. It meant peasants, clanrats, plague monks, storm vermin were all a real even to my mighty Knights...who did well but took a TON of damage.

Magic was...well, what it often is for me. I spent far more points on it than they did. And I did have some success...which is nice because in 7th, I would have gotten nothing done. I did think it was funny that on 5 of 6 turns they actually had more Dispel Dice than I had power dice...

and awesome that I still managed to get some stuff off.

I think the Horde rule is awesome, though I doubt I would use it in a tournament or competitive situation.

Not so fond of everything being dangerous terrain as it really restricted my movement, and the placing of templates makes them super powerful. Wish they scattered a bit more.

Overall, the game is much more tactical and much more fun now, with a heavy dose of random swings thrown in. Love, love, love it.