On List Building

The Warhammer hobby is rather intriguing for me.

First, off, the elements which many people love the most are the most painful for me. I intensely dislike assembling models and it get worse if they are metal. I do not like trying to come up with conversions. I do not enjoy the painting...though I do like the outcome.

But of the elements I dislike, perhaps none matters more than putting together a list. Yet it is perhaps the most integral to the game.

This is most true because in our group we habitually play not just with proxy models, but often enough without models...just bases. So having a model assembled and painted is not a requirement to play...but having a list built IS.

I have never figured out why I hate the process so much. From certain standpoints, it is extremely easy to build a list...

Come up with something you want your army to be capable of, select a troop with that capability, pick a number of figures, total it up. Rinse, repeat.

But from another, it is very difficult. Example:

I want to build a 2500 point Warriors of Chaos list. So I start with the models I most want to include...Knights. These days, 5 Knights do not A) survive or B)accomplish anything meaningful.

My propensity to fail 80% of my saves means I need more of them than someone who saves a statistically accurate percentage (and yes, I have been charting it...sad to admit, but true) so they take up a large percentage of my list compared to what they should.

So now I have dedicated 650ish points to one unit.

I like to have a level 4 wizard, typically a D-Prince because I like the model. They are vastly overcosted for what they do, checking in at 535 points. I could do it for 200 points less or so with better capabilities by going with a basic one, but I like the model.

Next I put in my favorite bsb knight with the stubborn banner and I am already at like 1450 points, give or take a few.

Problem is, I have yet to put in any core, am extremely susceptible to failed magic phases (for or against), monsters, shooting, war machines, anything that eliminates armor saves...that is a lot of holes and I still need to have backup for the D-Prince.

Drop in a Infernal Puppet caddy, my beloved but overpriced and almost useless Shaggoth (I think in one game he actually has been able to take out his assigned target...in about 15 attempts.) and I then throw in either some Marauders or some Chaos Warriors and I am at my points list total.

The problem is...it becomes a boring list because it is the same EVERY TIME.



So I try different things, but every time I do it leaves huge, gaping holes...like if I try to build a heavy infantry list (which I have tried a couple times) I get squished by shooting/flying monster heavy lists. If I go Knight/Shaggoth/Dragon Ogre-less, I get demolished by war machine heavy lists.

So my choices are either army that is so killy it overcomes having small numbers and are easily outmaneuvered or a larger army that is easily outmaneuvered and cannot deal with anything but soft core troops.


So I end up happy with neither list.


So I started looking at other armies in search of one that I will find fun to use, will be balanced enough to give a good game to the heavy shooting with numerous monster lists, the multiple war machine lists, and still be soft enough to not crush the uncompensated for pointless core armies without them having any hope.


High Elfs are a natural first look. First off, I have enough of the models, most of which are painted, and they have access to most of the elements I like; they can field dragons, knights, wizards.


The problem comes when I start trying to put a list together.


As always, start with the stuff I truly love...throw a Dragon, a high-level mage, and enough Knights to be useful....and suddenly I do not have enough points purchase units to deal with stuff like multi-monster or multi war machine armies.

The High Elfs I have painted look (in my opinion) very cool and fresh. They look together, like a "real" army with enough differentiating factors that they do not look like all the same.

But they are still S3 guys and S3, essentially no armor troops have very little chance against Skink poison javelins, Dark Elf Repeater Crossbows, Bretonnian Trebuchets, Skaven Plague Furnaces, WoC Knights....and that is just one thing from each opposing army!

So I then have the choice between building a list that has stuff I like but will lose and lose badly without much of a chance or I can build a more optimal list that I don not really care if it wins or loses because it bores me.

So I set aside the High Elfs and look at the Dwarfs.

Again...like the paint job and look. But Slayers die far too easily, I have taken over 20 Cannon shots in various games and have yet to have them do more than a single wound for me, and their elites have 1 attack apiece and are too expensive to field enough to withstand the opponents' blows when it comes to stuff like the Doomwheel, dragons, Chaos Warriors, Minotaurs, Grail Knights, Cold One Riders, etc.

So I either take a list other people hate to play against because it is blocks of shooting and little else...or I take a list that in my hands has no chance.

I do not have enough models to field Vampire Counts of any particular size, so I am back to Warriors of Chaos.

On the one hand, they have the advantages of being my best painted, best based, favorite army.

On the other, they are repetitive...and that is largely because of list building.

So it becomes and endless loop...grr.

Warrios of Chaos v. Beastmen

With Labor day looming, we decided to have another 3K game. I tried some new stuff.

Typically when I design an army, I start with the stuff that is guaranteed to go in...Shaggy the Shaggoth, some Knights, some more Knights, a chariot...then I put in a character or two and fill in around it.

So this would prove to be a shocking army. Nowhere in sight would there be Shaggy or a chariot.

There would be a 50 strong horde of Corn Scythes (Marauders with full command, great weapons and mark of khorne), 36 Corn Threshers (Chaos Warriors w/full command, hand weapon and shield, mark of khorne and some banner...probably against shooting?).

What is shocking is...this is what I built the army around.

I then included two Knight units, one fully 15 strong, the Amaizeing Knights (get the "subtle" corn reference?) and the other 7 strong. These would allow me to protect my flanks and, once my infantry pulled the enemy into combat, fulfill the shock cavalry role and blast the enemy in the flank.

Also, by putting in a Jugger riding dude and my typical BSB build, they would start the game with a rank...

I finished off with 2 wizards; one Vilitch the Curseling, who I wanted to try out, the other a humble level one with Shadow? Whatever lore has Miasma as the signature. He was also packing the Infernal Puppet and Channeling Staff.

Across the field would be the Beastmen. He had 2 units of Gors ranked up, 6 Minotaurs, and some nasty characters like Doombulls, a couple Bray Shamans, and 2 Gorgons. He also had a couple of Ambushing units.

Now, the reason I usually take Shaggy is he is really all I have to deal with multiple wound tough things like the Gorgons. In this game...I would need Magic and luck.

On top of this, the field was full of special terrain. In my deployment zone alone we had a Haunted Mansion, Scree hill, and Arcane Ruins. In the center of the field was a Temple of Skulls.

We had rolled up the Honor and Glory scenario and with a breaking point of three, this would take a while; his General and 6 standards gave him a fortitude of 8, as opposed to my mere 7.

My strategy was simple and appropriately chaotic. Find enemy. Smash face. Rinse, repeat.

To deal with the Gorgons I intended to devote large quantities of Magic as I did not have much faith in the abilities of my troops.

Warriors of Chaos Turn 1

I moved enough forward to perhaps tempt him into charging with a low chance of making it into contact. With no shooting, time for magic.

With 2 Wizards, one with the channeling staff and hanging out by the Arcane Ruins, I had 5 chances to channel on a 6 and one on a 5. It started well as I rolled a 10 for Winds and channeled 2.

This, by the way, would be the last time I successfully channeled in the entire battle, despite having 6 chances per turn. I figured it up and this means I was 6 short of expected power dice over the course of the battle.

On the bright side...in 8th, that does not mean I get nothing back from my investment in magic. It actually still did stuff...

Such as on this turn, I cast Infernal Great Way on his Gorgon on my right flank with Irresistible Force, doing about 3 wounds and modifying the miscast to a harmless 7, which ended the phase.

Beastmen Turn 1
He was able to bring one unit on my left flank, threatening my Puppet/channeling Wizard. Grr. His other unit I got to choose and just had him come on on his own edge.

Otherwise he just generally made a general advance. I blocked his good magic.


Warriors of Chaos Turn 2
I now had a conundrum. His big nasty unit of several Minotaurs and a couple characters (just next to the hill) flanked by the Gorgon were well set up to charge my Knights. It was an unlikely charge...I would need an 8 to reach him. But at the same time, better to get the charge than to get counter charged and take all those impact hits.

I climbed the temple with my Corn Threshers and took a chance with my champion, who got very lucky and improved his strength to a whopping 7. Not bad for a core infantry champ. The Corn Scythes advanced on the left with the Knights advancing in support, carefully avoiding the Haunted Mansion.

My foot wizard then failed to pass his March Leadership test and I barely got out of line of sight of the Beastmen.

My charge hit home.

Now, the problem here is...that Gorgon looks likely to flank charge my Knights. I do not like that much. So I will try Infernal on him again. But first, I force the Gors to take a panic test. They roll something like a 4 and pass easily. Bummer.

I was hoping to force a panic check, have them fail and run off and thus keep my juicy channeling post and Infernal Puppet carrier out of harms way as he had no shooting. A failed panic test would most likely send them scuttling right off the field and thus keep my back lines safe. Good strategy, good execution, but you still do not always get the desired result...

Though the inevitable Infernal Gateway was cast successfully. And killed the Gorgon.

Unfortunately, I forgot Vilitch's ability or would have had 4 more power dice, the ones he unsuccessfully tried to dispel with, which would have instantly seen me cast Treason on said Gor ambushers...

The close combat was epic. His doombull accepted my unit champion's challenge. He wounded the champ 3 times. I saved two of them.

This, by the way, would be the only two armor saves I passed. Not just in the combat...in the entire game. More on this later.

I then put a hurting on him, slaying every Minotaur and a hero, while taking back a further 5 casualties myself. Something like 20 total wounds dealt out between us. It was awesome.

And unsurprising when he broke and ran a whopping 7". Of course, all I had were Knights, so you know I had no chance of catching such a massive roll as I rolled my typical 2/2/1 to follow all of 4".


Beastmen Turn 2
Sometimes an unlucky thing...such as rolling a disappointing pursue distance...can prove to be a good thing. Liam was forced into a difficult choice. He set up to receive my charge with his Doombull/hero and set up a nice counter-charge with his hilltop Gors.

However, I pointed out to him...since I had lost 6 Knights when his Doombull was limited to just one, I was far more likely to charge the Gors next to me since I would have their flank. This possibility was a result of my poor pursuit roll.

So he was forced to close with my Marauder Horde/Chaos Warrior blocks.

So he then pulled up his chariot and circled his remaining Gorgon to flank my Marauder horde.




Warriors of Chaos Turn 3 or the Perils of being lazy
From my viewpoint, the gap between his heroes of doom and the forward sitting Gors was easily large enough for me to go after his Bray Shaman.

Now, tactically this was a huge mistake...to win the scenario, I needed to off his General and one unit of Gors. But having seen the carnage he wrought and fearing I could not hurt his doombull, I declared the charge on the Shamans.

Unfortunately, the gap was an optical illusion....no way of making it happen without clipping the Minotaur hero. He kindly offered to let me target the Doombull instead but I took it as a failed charge.

Speaking of failed...I would still need a "9" to make it into contact with my Marauders so I did not want to charge...and promptly failed the Leadership check, forgot I was allowed a re-roll and had to charge...which then succeeded and because they were going to have to charge, I charged my second knights into his Gorgon.

Not to feel left out, the Corn Threshers also elected to charge.

To my surprise, the Chaos Lord on Juggernaut did quite well, rocking the Gorgon for about 3 wounds and the Knights finished it off.


This time I remembered I had to go last due to Great Weapons with the Marauders. My Warrior champ handily dispatched the Gor champ, and the other three Warriors did a couple of casualties.

The Gors unleashed their fury solely on the Marauders, who with T3 and no armor were pretty soft and squishy, and the Gors did okay, felling about 6 of them.

Okay is a relative term...the Marauders unleashed 41 S5 attacks. 6 casualties checks in significantly less than the 14 or 15 that I inflicted. He had 4 shots at Insane courage...none passed, he broke, and the Doombull was not his general...which meant the game was over. He had one standard left.


Just for fun we played his combo charge on the Knights. Sure enough, the Doombull went all berserk, killing about 5 of them single-handed and the other character killed another. Out of I think 6 attempts, I saved zero.

On the other hand, I did kill the single hero and a few of the Gors.

Recap
Again the game fulfilled...indeed, exceeded expectations. We had a couple of clashes where there were multiple casualties on both sides. Magic was fearsome and actually part of the game instead of "Oh, you cast successfully? I dispel."

On the dark side...

I really, really like the Warriors of Chaos. They are very deadly, capable of inflicting great quantities of damage. It is one of their two strengths that set them apart.

Very few armies can put out as many attacks that have a probability of causing wounds on such a narrow frontage.

Their other strength lies in their great armor. Knights with a 1+ and Warriors with a 3+ mean I should be very, very durable.

What gets annoying is having 1/2 of my strengths mean absolutely nothing. Between spells, war machines, and whatnot, it feels like about half the time someone inflicts harm on my model, no armor save is allowed.

Then, when it is allowed, I very, very seldom make it whether modified or not. In this game I think I had 12 attempted saves and passed none of them.

That is pretty discouraging. What is the point to having good armor if it never matters? I seldom get a chance to save in the first place, the ones I do get are usually heavily modified, and regardless of whether it is 2+ or 6+, I make them at a rate far less than should happen.

At some point, it becomes nonsensical to play an armor where half the bonuses are invalidated. It would be nice to have some shooting, to have a way to deal with fliers/monsters/war machines that was reliable, or to have the army work the way it should.

To be sure, I have been able to manipulate the combats so that I usually still enter with and leave with an advantage...but I am successful because I plan to lose as a casualty every model the opponent wounds since I know I will never save anywhere near statistically accurate numbers of models.

The funny part of Warhammer is people typically notice the strengths of other armies while discounting their own. It is no less true of the WoC.

For me, their strengths have narrowed to one; I can put out very high quantities of S4 or S5 attacks in a relatively narrow frontage. The saves are irrelevant since they have no impact.

It is mentally wearing having to defend against shooting, magic, monsters, fliers, and really only be equipped to deal with the magic...in that I am well equipped.

Yes, I recognize the irony of having a sparkling win-loss record and being disappointed with the performance of the army. But it is winning more because I know how to use the offensive capability than because of the theoretical advantages.

When your second biggest advantage...survivability...is rendered impotent, it really means nothing. And that is just n0t cool.

So beware the forthcoming cunning plans and deadly alterations. If armor means nothing...why waste time with it?

8th Edition Inaugral Battle:5k WoC v. 2500k Skaven/Bretonnians

I had been greatly looking forward to the 8th edition, and the single biggest reason is what many people (myself included) incorrectly call the "step-up rule". That change alone makes Marauders and Chaos Warriors worth taking.


But the old problem remained. I still despised...and continue to despise to the point I have not yet started on tomorrow's list...building army lists. It bores and annoys me.

So I decided I wanted to use Galrauch AND my flying D-Prince, so I chose 5K, got Liam and Kev to throw together 2500 points apiece, and off we went.

Now, although the points levels are even, I have a couple advantages in this format and a couple disadvantages.

Advantage one: I have 1250 points to spend on lord-level characters, they have but 625.
Advantage 2: I have a unified force theoretically designed to work with itself. They have two distinct forces not designed to have synergies with each other.

Disadvantage: against just one army, I know how to handle the elite sections of the army. With two separate armies, I will most likely be facing tough, hard-hitting units more spread out than normal.


As the scenario required them to set up first, it allowed me to hastily build my battle plan. I would use Magic, Marauders, Knights and the Shaggoth to fend off the skaven while the bulk of my army dealt with the Bretonnians. I would then swing over those forces, roll up the skaven flank and walk away talking about my greatness....

Alternatively, the larger numbers of skaven forces, combined with their mighty monsters and war machines could roll up my left flank, I could get clogged up in the middle and end up being flanked/assaulted from behind my lines and bemoan my stupidity (as opposed to granting credit to the greatness of Kev and Liam's battle plan...)


By the way, click on the picture above. Check out his VERY creative h-pit abomination scratch built from bits. Looks like the Loch Ness monster I think.

The brets asked for the blessing, so I got turn 1.

Warriors of Chaos turn 1
On the left I was playing a stalling game, so made at best a modest advance. In the center, I had a trap set up with a small unit of Knights ready to flank any Brets who moved into the middle while my block of 40 (!) Chaos Warriors locked down the middle. My non-fast cavalry Marauder Horsemen would go after the War machines, allowing my big block of Chaos Knights to sweep around and protect the flank of the Warriors.

Seeing his 5 Peasant Men at Arms on horses, I figured the 10 Marauder horsemen with light armor and shield would have an easy time with them and declared the charge. I needed to roll a "6" by rolling 3d6 and choosing the highest two...and promptly rolled a 4. Which meant they moved a whopping 2".

This meant to protect my flanks I had to slow everyone else's advance in the center and my Chaos Knights would be locked into dangerous area, unable to maneuver.

Battle plans are made to alter. One bad roll will not wreck it.

I flew the D-prince up to his right flank with a perfect shot at several units.

For magic, I rolled a "5" and a "1"...meaning I had one more power die than they had...then they channelled 2 additional dispel dice and I scored zero, so they had more Dispel dice than I had power dice.

I put all my eggs in one basket and threw all 6 at the Purple Sun big template. If I got irresistible force, sending that big template through his Knights of the Realm, Grail Knights, peasant bowmen and, if lucky, two trebuchets and several Skaven war machines would be devastating.

Of course, I could also simply fail to achieve the casting value...

On the left, the cannon dropped the template on top of his 5 Jezzails, a weapon I truly fear.

I was fortunate to roll a "hit" so one was under the template and died. The other 4, I just needed a "2" to wound. So I rolled 4d6...and for the second consecutive game, rolled 4 "1"s, slaying zero jezzails.

So the first round was...well..disastrous. I was out of position, did no damage of note, and he was in great shape.


Skaven/Bretonnian Turn 1
His men at arms charged my Marauder horsemen. This was probably a good move in 7th edition...not so much in 8th.

Conversely, seeing my Knights ready to flank him, he did NOT charge my Chaos Warriors with his Knights of the realm. In 7th...probably good idea again as I would have removed his rank bonuses and crushed him on my turn. In 8th...he really needed to get the strength bonus for his lances.

On the other flank there was a general advance.

They channeled a few dice, had about 5 more power dice. I had to use my one scroll to stop his plague spell that would have cost me about 34 marauders had it gone through. That let Liam put regeneration on his peasants.

They also shot down a few Marauders...I fail my first 4 save attempts, all needing 5+.

He manages a wound on my Marauder Horsemen. No problem, But I then unleash the pain and put down all 5 of his men at arms and over-run into the peasants behind.




Warriors of Chaos Turn 2
I have a tough choice. I have a pretty unlikely charge on his Knights of the Realm, a more likely charge on his Grail Knights. If I charge the peasants, I am virtually certain to make it and unleash a huge amount of carnage which should allow me to overrun into their artillery park....but if something goes wrong, I have presented my flank to Grail Knights. This is seldom a good idea...

Shaggy charges his abomination, my Marauder Horde charges...I dunno, skaven clanrats?

Magic goes about the same. I roll a 5 and 1 again. They channel 2, I channel zero. For the second consecutive time, I have fewer power dice than they have dispel. So I go the big Purple Sun rout.

This time it works. Irresistible force. And then...it misfires, lands on my wizard and wounds him, scattering away from their battle lines. Then I roll snake eyes for the miscast and a 2 for Infernal Puppet...fortunately, I am not thrown into the warp, but that was...well...not good.

Time for shooting. After my colossal whiff on turn one, I am expecting good things. I do not get them as the cannon blows up, and I roll a whopping 16" for distance other units are wounded on.

By the time we are done taking wounds from the blow-up I have lost marauders, wounds on Shaggy and a wizard, he has taken a couple on the abomination and a couple clanrats.

A quick points count: I have done 40% wounds to my best wizard, half wounds to another wizard, 33% to my Shaggoth, and killed my own cannon. They have slain I think 4 Marauders at this point...I vote for me as their MVP.

On the bright side, it also killed 3 Jezzail members, and the other would spend the next 4 (!) turns fleeing off the board....

Well, close combat is the key for the Warriors of Chaos. Forgetting great weapons no longer go first on the charge, I inflict mayhem on his clanrats, slaying 13 of his guys. He attacks back, kills 2...and then rolls Insane Courage.

My Warriors cause 13 wounds to his peasants, he saves 3 with the blessing/regenerate. The Marauders and their horse kill 8 more. I am happy. I have had two epic combats that offset my horrific shooting and magic. I rout him.

I then roll horribly and fail to catch him...but it does move my Marauder horsemen to where it seems like an illegal charge in 8th as his Grail Knights, to hit my juicy Chaos Warriors would have to wheel to get around them, but that wheel would lessen the number of troops he got in combat...so I was perhaps fortunate to have awful pursuit rolls...

Skaven/Bretonnian Turn 2

He charges his plague furnace into my Marauder horde.

He gets off the Skaven plague spell, killing 17 Marauders.


The combat is brutal as I do a number on his clanrats, his Furnace does a number on my Horde, but I win the combat. He is down to ONE clanrat by now...

Warriors of Chaos Turn 3

the block of 10 Knights has his Doom Wheel in front of it and charges. I again have a spell dice deficit, but get Infernal Gateway off irresistibly, doing a few wounds to a war machine.

(fair warning; about this point I stopped taking notes so...well...who knows what REALLY happened after this..)

The Knights just barely kill the Doom wheel and overrun into some clan rats or plague monks or whatever. My Warriors go after his Knights of the Realm.

His Grail Knights charge my Knight block in the flank...the key moment in the game.

This is his best Knights, bolstered by their general, getting a flank charge (reducing my armor save by one) with S6 hits on my best unit. My Marauder Horde is dying, the Shaggoth is odds on to die to the Abomination, and magic,...well, for the first 4 turns he had more Dispel Dice than I had Power Dice.

But then something happened...he did indeed put down a couple Chaos Knights. But in return I kill all 7 Plague Monks and kill his Battle Standard Bearer. I win the combat and he epically fails his Leadership roll...not a huge shock as his 2 ranks were easily countered by my BSB/War banner/more kills. He flees a whopping 5"...and I pursue a whopping 4".

My Chaos Warriors run his Knights of the Realm.

Shaggy kills the Abomination while having just 1 wound remaining himself. And Kev promptly rolls a 6 to bring it back and gets fully 4 wounds. Uh-oh...

So now we have an interesting situation. On the left flank I have a foot wizard, 5 Knights, and 1 wound remaining on my Shaggoth. He has the Abomination, some skaven clanrats, the plague furnace, and a couple other miscellaneous units.

meanwhile, on the right I have 35ish Chaos Warriors, 8 or 9 Chaos Knights, another unit of 5 knights, a dragon, and D-prince...so we have done the classic Greek maneuver of each shattering the right flank of the other.

From here on it got bloody (as if, you know, the hundreds of casualties already dealt were not...) as there were charges, counter charges, counter/counter charges...

This just in. His Skaven general with something like a bajillion I9 or 10 attacks allowing no armor save is bad, bad jujupe. He tore up a unit of Knights and everything else he touched.

But I overran their artillery park and by the end it was obvious the game was going to be some sort of Chaos victory.

Ironically, I had one epic charge left where I failed a LD test with re-roll to restrain, thus forcing my corny knights (mark of khorne) to make an unfavorable charge on my 6th turn. I dealt out something like 17 casualties...as Fixed Dice pointed out, had I done just 16, he would have passed his test instead of getting overrun.

He paid me back, killing my BSB with magic when I failed my Initiative test which meant my Knights broke instead of being stubborn with a reroll....

He also wiped out everything I had on the left, including his Abomination taking out my Shaggoth and wizard.

So the epic blood bath ended.

Bretonnia was all but wiped out, with only the peasant bowmen hanging out on my left flank alive.

Conversely, almost all the Skaven were alive.

I started the game with 20 Knights and 2 Knight heroes and an exalted hero on juggernaut. At the end of the game I had 2 Knights left of all that...his Abomination withstood my 5 S7 attacks without taking a wound and slew the jugger rider on turn 1 or 2, killed the Shaggoth, and his clanrats did for 10 more Knights. the others fell to Brets and Magic.

Reflections

Wee totaled the points. They scored something like 2300 points, I scored about 3500 or so.

It was great fun. Much of my conjecture was backed up. The "remove casualties from the back rank" rule makes, to me, this game 1000000% better. It meant peasants, clanrats, plague monks, storm vermin were all a real even to my mighty Knights...who did well but took a TON of damage.

Magic was...well, what it often is for me. I spent far more points on it than they did. And I did have some success...which is nice because in 7th, I would have gotten nothing done. I did think it was funny that on 5 of 6 turns they actually had more Dispel Dice than I had power dice...

and awesome that I still managed to get some stuff off.

I think the Horde rule is awesome, though I doubt I would use it in a tournament or competitive situation.

Not so fond of everything being dangerous terrain as it really restricted my movement, and the placing of templates makes them super powerful. Wish they scattered a bit more.

Overall, the game is much more tactical and much more fun now, with a heavy dose of random swings thrown in. Love, love, love it.

Lizardmen Vs. Dark Elves 2500pts. 8-21-2010

A rather slow-witted Slann named Wutenwherenhowen was focusing on his ruminations. He was contemplating whether he was a swamp fly dreaming he was a Slann, or a Slann dreaming he was a swamp fly. This was a rather silly contemplation since all the other Slann had long since decided he was a nincompoop and therefore fit to be called neither a Slann or a swamp fly.

Wutenwherenhowen sensed a darkness on the winds of magic. An evil intent directed at nothing in particular. A pure desire to engage in malicious activities. Or maybe a wizard just ate a bad taco. Wutenwherenhowen's sensitivity to the exact nature of the winds of magic is not what it could be...

As Wuten investigated the disturbance he came to the conclusion it was a raiding party of those dreaded Dark Elves. He would have to muster some forces to prevent them from getting any deeper into his territory. Otherwise he would never hear the end of the other Slanns' jokes about the deep Dark Elf penetration into his nether regions.

In deciding what forces to take with him to confront the Dark Elf raiders, Wuten looked out and saw a vast sea of Skinks. He decided they had been idle too long and decided to take a few of them. Perhaps fifty? No, so many of them could not be expected to maintain order within the unit. They are after all the most cowardly of the Lizardmen. He settled on forty six of them making sure to include a more capable looking Skink, one with a conga drum, and one carrying some strange piece of cloth on a pole. He sent three of the mighty Kroxigor along with them to keep them in line.

He then decided he should have a few of the Skinks who had been trained to fight in less organized units. Perhaps 20 of them separated in to two units? Yes that would do nicely. And 8 of the chameleons to go behind the enemy lines and harry them. He would have taken more of the chameleons, but they are so difficult to find.

Not one to leave the Saurus behind when confronting a dreaded foe such as the Dark Elves, Wuten summoned 30 of the Saurus Warriors and ordered them into two groups; again making sure to bring a more capable looking Saurus in each group, a drummer, and one carrying that silly cloth thing. He was not sure why, but the cloth-pole made him feel better about the units chances.

He then summoned a group of Cold One Knights. There were more than a dozen in the group. He chose the strongest looking five, which happened to include a drummer and one carrying a cloth-pole. The Knights became slightly incensed and informed Wutenwherenhowen that the cloth-poles are called standards. He did not understand this as he had seen several units which did not carry one, but thought it would not be wise to start an argument with his elite troops before a battle.

Feeling a bit magically exposed, he scooped up some Ixti Grubs and called to Tehenhauin and another Skink priest. These would be fine magical allies, and could shore up the Skink Horde he had selected earlier.

He saw a couple Barbed Razordons that he thought looked kind of cute and decided to bring them along. This rounded out his army sufficiently that he SQUIRREL! ... where was he? Oh yes round army. Not a fan of Hexagons or other such geometric shenanigans.

Approaching the disturbance he had sensed he surveyed the field. On the far left about halfway between his army and where he expected to see the Dark Elves emerge, there was a ghoslty fence adjacent to a sandy bog. That should keep any knights or heavy infantry out of that area. To the left and right of the center of the field were grudge stones. The negative energy emanating from them had the potential for deadly effects. To the right of the rightmost grudge stone was a magic circle. It resembled a CD, whatever that is. There was a tower he expected to see garrisoned by the Dark Elves near the far edge of the clearing. A fence at the front of where the enemy line would be looked like the last piece of terrain that would be relevant. (There were a couple other pieces of terrain, but they ended up not affecting the battle.)

Wuten deployed his troops. Front and center was the big block of Skinks. They were joined by Tehenhauin and the nameless priest. Left and right of them were the Skirmishers, and behind them two blocks of Saurus Warriors. The Cold One Knights pushed their way up between the big block and the Skirmishers to their right. Wuten positioned himself with his personal guard behind the big block of Skinks and to the left. The Razordons found themselves a comfortable spot out on the right of the battle line.

The Dark Elf commander emerged from the jungle and quickly began positioning his troops. As expected, a large unit of Dark Elven Reaper Crossbowmen darted into the tower, and another positioned itself behind the fence. Two Reaper Bolt Thrower crews set their deadly machines up on either side of the tower. A large block of Dark Elf Elite Infantry (I cannot recall whether they were Executioners or Black Guard.) set up directly across from the large unit of Skinks. A pair of units of Dark Riders saw the Razordons and elected to set up opposite them. Something that resembled a Hydra's tail was seen sticking out from behind the tower.

It was then that Wuten sprung his trap. The chameleons appeared to the left of the Dark Elf battleline! They should be able to harass that flank sufficiently to to prevent them focusing on the main battle.

Now, how to defeat this enemy? Wuten figured the Dark Elves were leaning awfully hard on those "standards" as the COK had called them. (He still did not understand the name. Only two "standards" appeared in the entire enemy army.) If he could take those standards from the enemy, they might just lose heart and retreat from the battlefield. Of course, the same seemed to be true of his army. He would have to keep an eye on that.

As Wuten was considering how to route the enemy, one of the units of Dark Riders made a short advance to get in better position.

Startled, Wuten threw up a hand and his army surged forward. The whole army moved forward as one. Okay, it was more like one hundred that they moved. Various speeds and directions were taken. It kind of looked like sending a number of Slinkys down a stairway. They should all move the same, but they don't.

The COK moved as quickly as they could directly toward the DE bowmen behind the fence. The Saurus, Skirmishers, and big block of Skinks moved straight forward. The Razordons made a forward lateral move to the right, attempting to get close enough to the Dark Riders to fire, but stay far enough away to not get easily charged. The Chameleons approached the DE Pegasus near the Reaper Bolt Throwers and Hydra.

Wuten felt the winds of magic begin to blow. He let loose a maniacal giggle. The Temple Guard were certain this meant that the winds of magic were blowing strongly. The truth was that Wuten was very ticklish, and the winds were hitting just the right spot to send him into convulsions.

Once he gained control of himself again, he used the winds to gather a throne of vines for himself. He then used the winds to cast a couple defensive spells on himself and other units. At one point, the winds threatened to go out of control and cause harm to Wutenwherenhowen, but he cowered in his throne of vines and was able to maintain enough control to escape harm.

Then the hail of missile fire began. The Chameleons let loose first, firing their blowpipes at the Pegasus and rider. Not many of their darts hit, and those that hit did not penetrate the defenses of the winged horse or its rider.

The Skirmishers launched their javelin. Being tired from their grueling march, they were not able to accomplish much damage from the limit of the weapon's range.

The Razordons let loose with a volley of about ten deadly barbs. Three of these knocked Dark Riders from their saddles. Wuten did a mental emote. The one that looks like a chinese guy's smiling eyes with the two upward angle brackets. ^^

Then he realized he had dozed off. Of course the Razordons did not do any shooting just now, they had marched. Razordons are too cute to fire on the march. (Yeah, I went to fire the razordons, then realized they had marched. I went through the motions anyway. It would have been a pretty decent round of shooting.)

Their momentum spent, the Lizardmen settled in to see what the Dark Elves would do.

The Dark Pegasus flew over behind the Lizardmen lines, stopping near one of the grudgestones. The winged horses wind unsettled the nearby unit of Saurus warriors. They would have to keep an eye on him.

The front unit of Dark Riders moved swiftly and got between the Razordon pack and the main army. The rear unit moved slightly closer to the Razordons in the front.

Then the winds of magic stirred again. Suddenly many of the Skinks in the big block turned to gold! If Wuten had to guess how many, he would have said 69. Of course that would be preposterous since there were only 46 in the unit. In truth it was about 17 of the little lizards that became the alchemists' dream. Most mortals would have been tempted by the shiny gold statues their friends had become. The Skinks however lived up to the quote from the great Dicky Smothers, "You're so stupid, you can't even be stupid." (Yes, I and my opponent forgot to have that unit test for Stupidity as they were supposed to the next turn. Sure they had a 99.7% chance of success, but it is still kind of lame I did not at least roll for it.)

Then the Dark Elf line opened up with their missile weapons. 2 Chameleons disappeared. 4 Saurus Warriors were impaled by a Bolt from one of the Reaper Bolt Throwers. Wuten paused for a moment to notice that they looked an awful lot like a shishkabob. He was wondering how they would taste if they were roasted. Would that be cannibalism? Nah, they are a different species. And clearly the Slann are superior to the other species so it would be fine... maybe...

A couple of the Razordons' handlers disappeared under a hail of fire from the Dark Riders Wuten thought they had killed.

The COK ignored everyone around them and the Stupidity of their mounts (yeah, another neglected Stupidity test) to charge the DE archers defending the fence. They nearly stumbled, but managed to reach the enemy without incident. The big block of Skinks charged headlong into the block of DE elites in front of them. The Razordons turned to face the Dark Riders that had flanked them. The chameleons moved closer to the closest Reaper and crew. The rest of the army made a general advance.

Wuten cast several minor spells including the Shield of Thorns which he gave to the big block of Skinks. He also used magic to polish 7 of the Skinks that had been turned to gold. The magic polished the gold right off and they returned to their unit. Cheap gold plating... Then he realized that a number of the spells he had previously cast had worn off. Well, nothing to be done about it now. It was then that the enemy wizards began dispelling Wutens remaining spells. The first thing they dispelled was his Throne of Vines. Wuten crashed to the ground. "This is not right." he thought. "Even if my vines disappeared, my palanquin should have kept me aloft." The narrator said, "Shut up, it's less funny if you just float." At the end of the wizards' work, the only thing remaining was the shield of thorns on the Skink block.

The Razordons let loose with a hail of barbs. 20 to be exact. Four of the Dark Riders suffered unsaved wounds. Wuten giggled maniacally, stopped, then after checking to make sure he was not dreaming, began giggling again. The chameleons managed to kill one of the crew on the Reaper.

The combat between the Skink block and the DE Elites went well. A couple DEs died, a couple skinks died. The overwhelming numbers of the Skinks and the intimidating forms of the Kroxigor and Tehenhauin caused the DE unit to shudder, but they stood. The Knights killed a couple of the archers and remained safe themselves.

The Dark Elf commander ordered the Hydra to charge the unit of Skink Skirmishers in front of him. Before he could move on to other things, the commander watched the Hydra tear through that unit and into a block of Saurus Warriors. (The Skinks, much to nobody's surprise, vaporized under the onslaught of the Hydra who then overran into the unit of Saurus behind.) The Reaper crew on that flank ripped through the unit of Chameleons taking down four of the remaining six. With only two left in the unit, someone sent a stray bolt in their direction and took the unit down to one. Despite the carnage inflicted on his unit the lone Chameleon stood. He looked around for a Tonto or Silver, but alas, neither were to be found.

Both units of Dark Riders charged the Razordons. The Razordon unit prepared for the onslaught.

The combat between the big block of Skinks and the DE elites continued. Tehenhauin and his Tide of Serpents scored first dropping two or three DE. The Skinks scored next doing a couple wounds. Then the DE Elites killed the Skink Priest and about 4 of the Skinks. Finally the Kroxigor brought their massive clubs into play. The massive beasts swept the remaining Dark Elves aside, crushing armor and breaking bones.

With the standard bearer in that unit dead, the resolve of the raiders broke. The whole army made a hasty retreat. Wutenwherenhowen, although sad to see them go (before he had a chance to cast more spells), allowed them to leave. There would be other days.

This was a really fun battle. Both sides did considerable damage, although only three units were actually destroyed: Chameleons, 1 unit of Skirmishers, and the DE Elite infantry. The spell that killed 17 of my Skinks in one swoop was heart-stopping. I had a horde that was about 33% gone before it ever saw combat or even got shot. Fortunately he either did not have LOS to that unit or chose to focus on other units with his shooters.

We really saw the usefulness of the new magic system. The potential to wipe units out in one swoop, ignoring miscasts and massively increasing stats like Toughness, restoring models that have been killed, are all amazingly powerful. What used to be a useful-in-the-right-situations portion of the game has become a significant part of the strategy.

I think mixed units of Skinks and Kroxigor are useful, which is something I did not think before. Since the unit is unlikely to break, the Kroxigor will actually be pretty well protected. The overwhelming numbers will usually lead to having more ranks and that means Steadfast. In this case I was doing enough damage that it did not come into play but will often be useful.

Oh, and seeing my Razordon unit fire off 20 shots (the maximum) at once was awesome. :)

Hey Fixeddice, feel free to add your pictures to this.

Further thoughts on 8th Edition

When I went into the first game (report still pending...getting ready for the move has made it tough to get the pictures downloaded), I did something I seldom do. Not that I couldn't...in 7th edition, it was easy to do.

I made a battle plan before ever seeing the field.

The plan revolved around my infantry blocks. I would put them more or less in the center with the plan of advancing full speed and protecting/attacking the flanks with my Knights. I would use my single Cannon to take out any nasty blocks of shooting he might have.


So the plan was a general advance designed to ensure not getting flank-charged and thus allowing my core troops to have a chance to inflict some carnage on the opposition with 20 - 30 S5 and another 25ish S4 attacks. I should be almost wide enough to cover the entire width of the field, so this tactic would more or less force the enemy to deal with my entire army at one time.




On a one-to-one basis, I like the chances of my guys against most opponents; pretty good WS, S, T, I and save in comparison.

Meanwhile, the Knights would either defend the flanks or, if my battle-line extended further than his, attack his flanks while my Wizards went around brutalizing everyone with big, deadly spells.

But then, on the very first turn, something strange happened.

First, a mis-remembering of the rules. For some reason I thought the charge was double movement + 2d6. Not that it would have mattered...I needed to roll all of a 5 to get the charge.

See, I turned my Marauder Horsemen from Fast Cavalry into Light/Medium Cavalry with a 4+ save and a couple attacks apiece.

So when the battle was set up, I saw a way to use them as medium cavalry was actually used...to punch a hole in the opponents line which I could then break through and exploit.

I was perfectly set up to over-run his men-at arms 5 man unit and follow through into his Trebuchet/war machine park (I was facing 2 trebuchets, a couple skaven cannons of some sort or other, all told about 5 or 6 war machines clustered on or around a hill.)

This would allow the big block of Knights I had supported my center with to fill the gap, my line to surge forward and put pressure on his entire right flank. Meanwhile, my big block of Marauders, Shaggoth and a small unit of Knights would try to hold off the Skaven line on my left long enough to let my superior force deal with the Bretonnians.

In other words, I was trying the classic "defeat him in detail" maneuver; blocking forces, maneuver, blunt force trauma at the point of contact, and choosing which fights would occur and when they would happen. I was in tactical maneuver heaven.

Until my Marauder horsemen, needing a "6" to complete the charge...rolling 3 dice and dropping the lowest...managed to roll a 4. This meant I could either A) hold back my battle line to keep from supplying him with several flank charges with Knights of the Realm/Grail Knight Blocks or B) advance everyone else beyond the whopping 2" move the Marauder Horsemen made and destroy my own battle line.

Meanwhile, in the shooting phase, I dropped the S5 template on the head of his 5 Jezzails on the left flank. It would minimize his shooting and give my Knights/Marauder Horde the ability to hold off his Doomwheel/Plague Wheel/Abomination machines while my strong flank did the work.

And the S10 center of the hole killed one. But then...needing 2s...I rolled 4 ones, doing not one single wound to the rest of his shooters.

So there you have it; in turn one, my entire battle plan was in ruins based on 2 pathetic rolls.

The super low roll for the horsemen slowed my right flank advance to a crawl and my complete whiff with shooting meant the plan formed WHEN I BUILT MY ARMY failed 2 minuted into the game.

Why do I bring all this up?

I keep reading people talking about how 8th edition is not a tactical game. It is just build your strong list and push forward, roll dice, and see what happens.

I call shenanigans. Lazy thinking.

8th is extremely tactical, far more so than 7th ever was.

Whereas in 7th you pretty much knew you would break your opponent on the charge without them ever getting to even attack back, in 8th you not only have to consider what happens if you win or lose...you have to consider how to deal with the attacks that come back at you.

That means things like flank charges are, if anything, MORE important than in 7th. Minimizing the attacks from support is huge. Minimizing stuff like the 6+ parry ward save pays huge dividends.

It means debating when and where to allow holes to develop in your battle line matter. And develop they will...with shooting and magic far deadlier than they were, you will see even your most elite units disappear from time to time.

It means things like blocking forces actually have a real, meaningful use, unlike in 7th where my Marauder Horde was begging to get flank charged by a weak skaven unit that would wipe out the 5 models on the flank (no attacks back), over-run into my Knights and fight a second time...basically rolling up my flank in one turn and rendering the blocking forces pointless.

Sure, it still matters how good your troops are...actually, it matters MORE now.

On the surface, getting 35 attacks from Goblin Spearmen sounds good. At the end of the day, though, they are hitting on 4s or 5s, so 12 - 18 hit, and of those, half or less will wound so 3 - 6 wounds if they get that many attacks, and of those a few are likely to be saved.

It still takes a troop with decent chance to hit and wound to take advantage of the new rules...but it now means those troops are worth taking.

It is now worth the time and effort to find a place to get my Chaos Warriors into action. Even if I have to withstand a charge from Grail Knights...I still get to fight them instead of just take off models.

Which means I should invest some time and thought into how to get them into action because Chaos Warriors are going to do damage.

This is not to say 8th is not also including a heavy dose of luck. You will have fluffed rolls and epic successes. But that luck factor requires MORE tactical acumen, not less.

Now, in our game, it altered my plan...but I was able to adjust my tactics. I set up my flanking Knights so after he charged my Chaos Warriors (who, with 6 ranks, the Banner of Chaos nearby, had a re-rollable 8 on stubborn to still be there the next turn) with his Grail Knights, I would charge the Grail Knights the following turn with 5 Knights of my own.

Grail Knights mired in combat < Grail Knights roaming around charging in to break opponents mired in combat.

With a little better luck, it would not have been necessary to alter my tactics. I would have had my big block of Chaos Knights set up to flank-charge his Grail Knights after they charged my Chaos Warriors head on, and my steadfast Warriors + Knights would happily grind him to dust as his Knights of the Realm would have had to take massive Dangerous Terrain tests in roaming through the forest...only to be met by more Chaos Knights.

I would have wiped out almost all his Jezzails on the left and thus not had to worry about his shooting...only on how best to hold up that half of the army while I concentrated on the other side of the field. (Though admittedly the wound whiff had nothing to do with it being 8th as opposed to 7th...but is illustrative of how luck-based results can have huge impacts.)

In 7th edition, it would have been predetermined how the game would go. I could have forced him to charge/overrun where I wanted and when I wanted, I could have more often than not kept him from attacking those who I did not want him to attack...

In 7th edition, more often than not the old truism that "no battle plan survives contact with the enemy" was completely false.

It was a failing of 7th that battle plans in fact could be nearly ironclad...the vagaries of chance were not enough to offset the weaknesses of the rules and thus meant it had more strategic impact than tactical...

You COULD design armies around specific battle plans and know they had a high chance of going off just as you drew them up.

This, contrary to popular opinion, MINIMIZES the tactics involved.

Corrections to the rules like allowing supporting attacks, everyone to fight, and so forth means those events so common in war...inferior troops outperforming expectations, elite troops not performing, inexplicable charges and failed charges that break battle lines...these things now are well represented in the game.

And it is in those situations where your perfect battle plan breaks down due to something unforeseen that show whether you can truly perform in a tactical manner.

Yes, there will be times the vagaries of chance will result in a brilliant, well-executed plan going awry...then again, there is a reason Napoleon famously said he would rather have a lucky general than a good one.

Not that Warhammer in any way, shape or form reflects true warfare...but when discussing tactics, you are reflecting the same things often found in war, and as such, yes, there should be those unforeseen events that disrupt plans.

These events are more reflective of true tactical challenge than simply knowing if you do a + b the result will be c.

Now, somewhere out there is someone saying, "Ha! GW fanboy who thinks everything they do is right".

Not so much. I think failed charges should go their entire distance, find many elements of TLOS outstandingly ridiculous and game-breaking, think there are some other notable flaws in the game design...I could go on, but why?

But the accusations that the game "has no tactics" are wildly off base and wrong. It has more opportunity and need for tactics than ever before.

Thoughts on 8th Edition

I have been reading a lot of material from numerous Warhammer related sites regarding 8th edition and Saturday got in my first actual game of it.

We had a good-size game; I took 5K of Warriors of Chaos and would be facing 2500 points apiece of 2 different armies.

I figured Liam was most likely to bring Beastmen with an outside shot of bringing the Bretonnianss and figured Kev most likely to bring Sakven with a not insignificant chance of bringing the Ogre Kingdoms.

Not that it would matter...I was going to build the Knight of magic regardless of what they brought.

The overwhelming concensus I have come across at various sites is that cavalry in this edition is "pants", "not worth taking", "overpriced", and just in general considered inferior.

This made me inaccountably happy because it means I can take more Knights and instead of making my army better, it arguably (according to general opinions) makes my army worse.

The second concensus is that taking 1 Level 4 and 1 level 2 Wizard is about the best possible result. So taking 2 Level 4 Wizards (and thus no fighty-killy Lord level character) and a couple Level 2s would mean I had spent too many points on Knights and Wizards to have a truly beardy list.

I also wanted to try out the Horde rules and deliberately over-costed my Marauders by taking fully 50 with mark of khorne, light armor, shield, and great weapon...an obviously poor choice since they MUST use the great weapon in close combat, so the light armor will almost always be negated and the shield is extra points for nothing.

I also took an over-sized block of 40 chaos Warriors...a ridiculous choice, as most people seem to be running them in blocvks of 12 (6x2 formation).

But that is what I love about this edition. With rules like steadfast and removing casualties from the rear, these blocks have value in 8th.

In 7th edition, MAYBE the Warriors block would have been worth taking. Maybe. But the marauders? It is to laugh. Despite their ability in 7th to POTENTIALLY dish out 13 S5 attacks, the reality is the enemy would typically wipe out most or all of the front rank, reducing them to maybhe 2 attacks for the champion.

Thus I would be spending points for the sole purpose of giving the enemy some nice combat reolution bonus.

In 8th, despite taking 15 casualties from one spell and several more from shooting, I was able to attack back with I think 28 attacks, killing about 17 Skaven 9an admittedly above average and outstanding result).

This shows the good and better of the edition to me.

First, the good. Magic is effective again...and potentially game changing. His Plague spell did nearly 33% casualties to a 50 man unit. That is pretty awesome. I even was able to get off several spells (despite, I might add, some apalling rolling that saw them have more dispel dice than I did on the first three turns due to my second die consistently being a "1" and them channeling 2 - 3 dice per turn whi9le I was channeling zero on those turns.)

Since I have always loved the magical aspect of fantasy, it was great seeing magic be something worthy of being feared instead of something you packed a couple dispel scrolls and forgot about.

I love that I can be confident I will get off not just magic, but magic I want to get off. No more pointless "I shall cast flaming sword of Ruin on my mage who will never see combat".

Great, love the new magic system.

Second, the GREAT part. I love that Marauders now have apunchers chance against...say...grail Knights.

In 7th, 150 points of Grail Knights > 300 points of Marauders based on the charge alone.

In 8th, 300 points of Grail Knights are more or less equal to 300 points of Marauders. yes, if they get the charge and have proper support they probably win the combat...but the marauders are still going to have a punchers chance of doing some damage.

Whereas in 7th, if charged by a hero-buffed unit of Grail Knights I expected to have zero chance of striking back, in 8th I am virtually guaranteed to have a chance to strike back...AND, more importantly, strike back with a sufficient chance of doing casualties.

Even blessed grail Knights with 2+ save and 5+ ward have something to fear from 21 S5 attacks coming back their way.

Assume 10 hit on 4s, 8 wound, 4 save base, and 1 - 2 save Ward...even the mighty Grail Knights have now taken some damage for their attack. And should the Marauders somehow be Steadfast after taking 10 - 15 casualties, in future rounds they are about even money to take on the now low-S Knights.

Conversely, if I charge my beloved Chaos knights into say...Saurus Warriors, in past editions I could count on the 16 S5 and 10 S4 attacks to keep the Saurus from ever attacking back and thus proved demonstrably impervious to their martial might.

In 8th, however, a block of Saurus is a legitimate threat to do some wounds...even if I run the Knights 10 deep now, 21 S5 and 5 S4 attacks are still going to most likely see a minimum 20 S4 attacks coming back, 10 hitting, 5 wounding, and maybe 1 - 2 Knights dying.

Not a lot...but better than the zero that would die in 7th. It means any unit dishing out mass quantities of attacks has a great chance of doing damage to someone like me...

Who for the second time in a month rolled 4 "1"s on a roll of 4 dice, a 1 in 1296 chance. And needing 2s to save failed 2 out of 3.

So I expect my Knights to die.

In fact, in our game where I got my Knights into the combats I wanted every time except when Frenzy forced me to present my flank to the Grail Knights, I lost both Exalted heroes and 17 of 20 rank and file knights.

Perversely, this makes me very happy.

If my Knights are worse I do not need to feel bad about taking more.

I also will take Chaos Warriors more often since they are now more likely to actually see combat. meaningful combat.

Now, obviously one game is a very small sample size.

It did, however, reinforce several theories I had about the game and I am in love with this edition.

I will be able to take the units I like...block infantry for epic "grind" combats, Knights for epic charges, Wizards for saga-worthy magic, and know they will all be useful.

Conversely, I really, really do not like certain aspects of the "true line of sight".

First off, hills either need to be modeled differently or else it should be taken into account they are REPRESENTATIONS of much taller structure.

Second, forests should actually be...you know...forests. I am tempted to model a forest with about 200 trees and dare anyone to shoot through it. The idea a single model could not find a convenient tree in the middle of the forest to hide behind is ludicrous beyond comprehension.

Another dislike is the "1+ armor cap (gotten around by the Eye table due to its explicit statement allowing 0+, but by nothing else I am aware of). It would be nice to allow characters to be protected against higher strength stuff.

But overall, it looks like a great experience. I look forward to writing up the report on the game that saw an irresistible Purple Sun damage only the one who cast it, the unbelievably awesome hellcannon implosion, the Shaggoth v. pit Abomination duel, and the surprising outcome.

War of the Shrine: The Review

Well now, that was a bit epic, eh? I wanted to play a massive, massive game and, with a bit of mucking around to make it work with a space that honestly was much, much too small to contain the result, I did so.

Looking back, I both agree and disagree with my thinking. I decided to go everyone against everyone because I knew Chaos alone was much larger than any other army, but everyone against Chaos would be overwhelming the other way.

The High Elf contingent is frankly too small to be anything but an ally. The Dwarf and Warriors of chaos armies would have to fill the core portions...so maybe Dwarfs, High and Wood Elf against Orc & Goblin/Warriors of Chaos would have been right.

I could have set it up with a proper field, the Dwarf-led contingent defending the Shrines on one side of the field and the WoC/O&G army attacking.


In some ways I think the 5+ Ward for holding a shrine was too powerful. On the other hand, it allowed High Elf Spearmen and High Elf Archers to withstand much more powerful units for surprisingly long amounts of time.

I did love the altered rules that moved units around, even when in combat, to allow charges that might favor the weaker armies.

There were a few key moments that, had they gone slightly different would have made a huge difference. For example, if the White Lions had been able to either slay the Troll or he had not somehow managed to stay in the combat, they would have had a powerful unit they would have been able to use to rescue their chariot, etc.

However, when they got locked in the combat, it became a grind and frankly, having just 1 attack each was insufficient.

I know it is purely subjective, but I "feel" like I have poor rolls, and numerous combats in this game reinforced that...units with frontages of 6 that were elite (White Lions, Miners, Hammerers) getting full attacks and often doing not even a single wound in any given combat...

When time after time, needing 4s, you hit 1 or 2 times in seven tries, it feels pretty pointless. It would be one thing if Warhammer were not a 6 turn game...but it is.

And when your ELITE troops cannot take out chaff (see "Miners v. Night Goblin Archers, Miners v. Night Goblin Spearmen) in 2 or 3 turns, it is obvious your elite troops are not worth their points.

If anything, this game made me LESS likely to take ANY troop that has just one attack each. I rely on numbers to overcome poor rolling (I think it was four times Prince Chrysolopsis rolled 1 or 2 hits in 5 tries needing 3s against Dwarf Pirates (aka Thunderers). That was discouraging...and then when once or twice those failed to wound, suddenly I had a "combat monster" who could not even WOUND chaff troops in multiple attempts. Nor is that the first time I have encountered this issue...it is actually a regular thing.) and you simply cannot do that with one attack per model.

Still, there were some great moments like the Repeater Bolt Thrower crewman standing alone against the charge of the rampaging Chosen.

It is moments like that which comprise a significant part of my enjoyment of the game.

And this game presented some other interesting moments. On a field with as limited of terrain as this one, the tactics were few to choose from...though there were some.

It was an interesting question of how to break out from the cramped position both the Warriors of Chaos and Orcs & Goblins had at the beginning of the game.

That issue was further complicated when every wing was held up; the High Elf Archers who would not die, the Dwarf Hammerers, Warriors, and Warriors in the center, and the Treeman/Treekin on the right.

At every turn, I found it was a struggle to get past those road blocks which prevented the Warriors from bringing their overwhelming numerical power to bear for quite some time.

Across the board, I actually figured the Night Goblin Archers would die in one or two turns...and they also clogged up a key portion of the field for quite some time, which restricted the Orc and Goblin lines from getting into action.

I was surprised by how long the Goblins could stand, though not surprised by how little damage they did. Even with 13 attacks, when needing 4s to hit, 5s to wound, and the opponent having 5s to save (or, in this case, two rolls needing a 5), they simply have no hitting power.

They would have needed 40 attacks a turn to have a chance of doing damage.

It comes back to that, again and again. the Wardancers, with a similar strength, were many times more effective despite having fewer guys attacking because just a handful of models could wield 3 attacks each quite often.

Of course, they also could die to the flick of a wrist to even S3 enemies...

It showed to me once again why, in 7th edition, no matter how cheap they were, blocks of low S, low T, low A troops were simply a bad, bad, bad idea to take. They could be out-maneuvered by anyone who they could hurt and could not hurt anyone who was willing to fight them.

Nor were Dwarf Cannons all they were cracked up to be. time and again they over-flew their target or stuck in the ground just in front of the target. I must have shot 20 times with cannons throughout the game...and done maybe a dozen casualties.

I look forward to seeing a Dwarf Gunline in action in 8th...I think they will prove counterproductive, needing so much space and not being capable of taking out entire units. They should deal some damage, but will be losers for that due to the new scenarios and victory conditions.

I suspect the Juggernaut will be seen but rarely. He is too expensive and characters with only 5 attacks simply do not do enough damage. Even against a squishy Elf he struggled to wound...and when he faced T4 troops it was even worse.

The Chariot continues to disappoint I have yet to roll higher than a 2 when it charges, meaning 3 Impact hits. This speaks again to my "trust" in die rolls.

I know I have a 66% chance of garnering 4 or more impact hits. Yet in nearly 10 charges now, I have yet to do more than 3.

When I have a unit that depends for its effectiveness on rolling a single die to see what happens, I have little faith...Spawn, Chariots, the magic missile that routinely does 2 hits when I roll d6+1 and they are routinely at S2 or 3 when I roll d6+1 for strength...these things all reinforce my scepticism that I will have a good result with anything which rolls low numbers of dice.

This, of course, affects/skews my perception of how I want to build my army.

For example, I have little interest in playing a dwarf army. They are slow, to take out tough targets like Ogres, Hydras, dragons, Knights, or tanks, they need to rely on single die rolls from cannons. Not going to happen for me.

To win a close combat, they need to do large amounts of damage with very few attacks. Not going to happen for me.

At the same time, I do not want to play the same army all the time. I love my Knights, Dragon ogres, and Shaggoth and...well, at the moment, due to how pathetic my magic results have been, those are really the only units I enjoy using, and even the Shaggoth has been remarkably ineffective more often than not...but I still love the model.

I think I would really enjoy playing a Savage orc army if not for stupidity and their S being too low to really be effective. If I owned more Orc models, that would probably be the way I went.

It is my real hope that in 8th edition I am able to use more Marauders and Chaos Warriors. the Marauders kind of goe against type for me...they have too few attacks (unless I mark them for frenzy) and are way too squishy...but if they are up against other low A, squishy models they might be worth it.

Actually, with the new step up and steadfast rules, they would also be worth it so long as I can protect the flanks.

Same with Chaos Warriors. Well, except the squishy part...in theory, having 2+ save and T4 means they are not squishy, but I have had major problems keeping them alive past the charge.

Speaking of things which should be better...I get the "fluff" of Slayers, but they are one of the worst units in the game.

They struggle to wound large targets..which are, or should be, their primary targets...and with utterly no defense, they die far too easily. It only gets worse for them in 8th where their low edition means they will get wiped out before they even attack unless they take large units...which they are too expensive to take.

As 7th edition draws to a close, I will look back at it fondly. It made Chaos Knights...scratch that, ANY Knight...a bit too powerful on the charge as they were favored to not only defeat enemy infantry (and often other units) of vast numerical superiority on the charge, but beat them without getting attacked back and by such a high number the opponent was almost assuredly going to break.

Every glass cannon had that same overpowered ability. I will not miss that, even though losing it hurts me more than most. It was kind of cool not needing to make armor saves, particularly in light of the sheer number of times I would fail 2 of 3 or 3 of 4 saves needing just a 2+.

I also will not miss spending 1200 points or more on Magic, seeing an opponent spend 200, and not being able to get off any meaningful spell. No more scroll caddies can only be a good thing.

This game was a fine example...even without allowing anyone a single scroll, there could not have been more than 5 or 6 spells cast successfully all game long...and those that were simply got irresistible force.

Ironically, the dwarves then failed every turn in their attempt to dispel either that put an Exalted Hero in play...

Anyhow, looking back, I thoroughly enjoyed the game until turn 6 when it turned into just a bunch of dice rolling. Not that I do not enjoy that from time to time, but there was no skill left...no seeking to get the right charge at the right time, or select the right target for shooting.

If 8th edition fixes some of the issues of 7th...heavy shooting armies being devastating, inability to use magic, every9one getting to fight instead of just chargers...the Warhammer can only get even better.