Another Look at Marauders

When I was reviewing the new Warriors of Chaos book my review was derailed by Mac issues…and after it caused me to have to restart two or three times I put a lot less effort into communicating my thoughts clearly and, to be honest, irritation and frustration no doubt colored some of my responses. Sure, that sounds odd when you think about how I gushed over the quantity and quality of choices…I even found a use for the wildly overpriced Forsaken. At the same time, I think I was pretty overcritical of the Marauders.

Lets go back and look at them from a slightly different angle. For a WS4, S3, T3 guy, they are actually pretty affordable. Better yet, who out there would not GLADLY pay 2 points per model on anything but the cheapest crap troop to give their guy a 6+ ward? I would gladly pay it for my Black Orcs…Goblins…Gor…ungor…Lothern Sea Guard…Dwarf Warriors…Men at Arms…Knights Errant…and those are the ones I might hesitate a half second before paying that price. Ironically, for some of those I add much more in cost than the 18ish% save rate I gain...but I irrationally put a higher value on the chance to save than its actual mathematical value.

My more favored stuff like the Arachnarok Spider, Mangler Squig, Dragon Ogres, Dragon Ogre Shaggoth, etc? Oh, yeah. I would pay that cost without even thinking about it. Auto-take. So it is well worth it for Marauders with their stat line even if it is a mildly inefficient use of points (adding 33% to the cost of the model for an overall improvement in durability of less than 33% is inefficient; it is only a 33% improvement if they only ever fight in close combat where the enhanced parry save is in force and never are subjected to shooting, magic, LD tests, etc.)

 For that matter, Goblins envy their stat line. Dwarf Warriors envy their price. Gor will pick them apart, but then again, the rest of the Warriors core will slaughter the Gor or anything else the Beastmen have in their Core. Or Special. Or Rare.

And there we get to the gist of it.

Sure, in a vacuum the Marauders are not too high priced. They become about right when you improve them, but by then they are getting too expensive in comparison to the Chaos Warriors. Or, alternatively, the Chaos Warriors are too cheap (see Math-Hammer non-sense at the end of this post). But they are not in a vacuum…they are in a book comprising sections including characters, rare and special.

And while I might trade Marauders for Gor, lets say, straight across…unmarked Marauders, that is…would I trade Marauders and Chaos Warriors for Gor and Ungor? Uh…no. And while I would dearly love to have a line of Repeater Crossbowmen lined up next to my Chaos Warriors in lieu of those Marauders and their zero inch range, I would not trade the Chaos Warrior option for anything in the Dark Elf core section. I would rather have the Marauders than Men at Arms straight up…and so forth. It is not the Marauders alone that must be considered, it is how they perform their role in the book they are in relative to their points.

And therein we see part of the problem.

If I have a guy with 1 S3 attack and have the option to give him 2 attacks by marking him and thus giving him Frenzy, it is hard not to. I come close to doubling his overall effectiveness but only add 33% to the cost. Unlike the save, that DOES seem to be an efficient use of points. When I need to pay 3 times as much for another model as I do for another attack, it seems an excellent value to corn it up and take frenzy.

 If I plan for these guys to die in droves but be a problem for high armor guys, it seems silly not to give them S5 via Great Weapon. And of course maximizing the attacks of each model in that scenario is a must, so along comes khorne. But suddenly I have nearly doubled the cost of the model.

And therein lies the rub; the basic, unenhanced Marauder on the surface seems to be a very good value in the book. 50 Marauders in a block will take up a ton of space and do they job I need them to do…namely, pin the opponent in place with superior numbers until my high-priced death units get involved. And when 50 Marauders cost the same as 21.4 unimproved Chaos Warriors it even makes a kind of sense. (Unless you math-hammer it out…if you horde both up, which you would do with the Warriors to take up the same frontage, the Warriors end up with MORE attacks than the Marauders and there are still 16 CW standing when the Marauders are dead…so yeah, even for pure cheapness, Marauders do not make sense.)

But the temptation is always there to enhance those Marauders…a mark here, an equipment upgrade there…and suddenly the price difference between them and the Chaos Warrior shrinks. You see, with the equipment costing basically the same for a Marauder as a Warrior,  even if you add the same equipment to each at the same cost, the cost ends up being higher for the marauders.

Consider this; 7 basic Marauders cost the same as 3 basic Chaos Warriors. But 7 Marauders with say…mark of tzeentch, light armor and shield to provide a steadfast block with a 5+/5++ close combat saves as 4.118 Chaos Warriors with tzeentch and shield…who are better S, T, I, and armor save with a 3+/5++. So when you start adding on options, suddenly you essentially get “free” Chaos Warriors due to the difference in base cost. Adding 67% to the cost of a Marauder to get the same enhancements you get by adding 18% to the Chaos Warrior means the more enhancements you add, the better value the Chaos Warrior becomes in relation to the Marauder.

Worse, there is no role the enhanced Marauder does better than the enhanced Warrior. Trying to be steadfast? Warriors would have to have the help of a character using the Crown of command in theory…but in sheer ruggedness and combat ability, they probably never NEED steadfast…Going after a low quality horde? The Marauders melt away faster than the Warriors. Going after a high T target? The Warriors damage it faster while absorbing less punishment. Unless you are facing something that ignores or eliminates armor, the Chaos Warrior is better in every respect.

Yet I still think the Marauders are a valuable addition. They just make much more sense taken with little to no upgrade. Why do they make sense? Because you might run into someone rolling the lore of metal…or the engine of the gods…or some other armor-ignoring thing such as…oh, I don’t know, every #$%^&%$# Skaven weapon). And then when you sit there having paid a high price for an all-armored army only to see your weaselly opponent disregard it. But when they kill EVEN MORE Marauders with no more effort you can simply laugh and say, “Well, I did not have armor on them anyway.”

Of course, outside of that or needing a 60 point mage bunker…I think the Marauder nerf-bat says leave them at home. Or take them because you want a “friendly” game. Unless you are running into a Dwarf, Empire or Elf gunline, or a Skink horde, or a goblin horde or…okay, point taken. There is really no reason to take them now. Even if your opponent tones down his list to face them, you are behind the 8-ball…

Ironically, I started this post out to praise the Marauders. But the truth is, I think Chaos Warriors are pretty reasonably costed for what they do compared to their weaknesses. And I cannot find any permutation of Marauders that provides even a reasonable facsimile of the same value. As you can see if you waste time on the math-hammer portion of the post...Warriors rule, Marauders drool. 

Lets hope I still take a block as I was doing with the last book just because I have them already...

*************** Here begins the math-hammer ***********************

The Marauders seem over priced in comparison to the Chaos Warriors I spent so much time comparing them to. It is almost certain a guy with better WS, S, T, I, and armor is worth more than the 5ish extra points. We can always math-hammer it out. Figure basic model (and one thing I failed to notice is if Chaos Warriors are still required to upgrade). 7 Basic Marauders cost the same as 3 basic Chaos Warriors, so lets pencil it out.

If we line the Marauders up 5 wide with 2 guys in the second row, they all get to fight. 3 Chaos Warriors swing first; 6 attacks needing a 3, so 4 hit. They need 3s to wound so 2.668 wounds. In this round we will round down just to help the old Marauders out. 5 Marauders swing needing 4s to hit. 2.5 hit so we will round up to 3. They need a 5 to wound so 1 wound, 50% chance to save so we will say he fails. Marauders still have a rank so are steadfast and stay 58.3% of the time so we will go another round.

2 Chaos Warriors hit 1.3 times, say 1 hit, .667% change to wound, we will round up the wound this time so now 4 Marauders left. 4 swings back, 2 hits, a 1 in 3 chance to wound…we will say it wounds, but this time the 50% chance saves. No longer steadfast, now the Marauders need a 6 to stay around so there is actually a 58.4% chance they run…but they are rolling hot dice for this and stay. I am trying to make a case for them so will give them every advantage.

2 Chaos Warriors hit 1.3 times, and if this wounds then over the last three rounds the statistical probability of 2.668+.667+.667 wounds = 2.002 and we are right on schedule. 3 Marauders get to swing back, 1.5 hits, 1 in three chance to wound, we have already given 2 hits in that circumstance so they will miss this time. Again 58.4% chance they run…

Will 2 Marauders take out 2 Chaos Warriors when 7 could not take out 3?

But lets change the game a little bit. Lets say we want them to stick around so we are giving the Chaos Warriors a shield and the mark of tzeentch to give them a 3+/5++ in close combat. We will make the Marauders as rugged as possible with light armor, shield and the same mark. Now we need 10 Chaos Warriors and 17 Marauders. I can already tell this will not end well for the Marauders. I will line the Warriors up just 5 wide (instead of the 6 they should be or possibly even 10 wide). The Marauders will go 7 wide to give them the most possible attacks.

The Warriors go first and have 15 attacks. 10 hit, .6.67 wound so say 6 wound. 1 saves with armor, 1.65 save with ward so lets say 2 save, they take 3 wounds. 14 left. 14 attacks, 7 hit. 2.3 wound. Lets round up to 3. 1.5 Warriors save with armor, .33 with ward. To keep it vaguely fair, I will let a second warrior save, but next round-off, he goes down. So 9 Warriors left. No, we will take the 17%...we want the Marauders to win and are going to twist numbers. 8 warriors left.

13 attacks hit 8.67 times = 9 hits (for math ease with wounds), 6 more Marauders wounded. 1 saves with armor, this time the ward whiffs. 9 Marauders attack with fury, hitting 4.5 times, say 5 =1.65 wounds = 2 wounds. 1.334 save base, we are well over 1 more saving, so all that fury is wasted as no Warriors fall.

13 attacks hit 8.67 times = 9 hits (for math ease with wounds), 6 more Marauders wounded. 1 saves with armor, this time the ward whiffs. 4 Marauders attack, hitting twice, .33 wound, and somehow it goes unsaved.

12 attacks hit 8 times, 5.339 wounds = 5, we will let one save with armor…even if the other saves with ward he is fleeing. Or dying next round to a blizzard of attacks.

In other words, when you make the Marauders better…they get worse in comparison to the improved Warriors. Much, much worse….

But what if instead we go offensive? The Marauders cackle madly as they take up their great weapons and khorne, knowing the superior Warrior initiative is now irrelevant. This is just a slugfest. 19 Marauders show up so armed to take on 11 Warriors. This should be fun. 19 Marauders hit 10 times (as always, we will be nice to the beleaguered Core guys. Their bare chests and bdsm-inspired gear almost require it.) 6.67 wounds rounds up to 7, this is promising. 1 Warrior saves, so 6 will fall. The Warriors have 22 attacks, 14.67 hit, so 14, 11.67 wounds, we will round down to just 11. 5 Warriors now face 8 Marauders. Oh, and with the Marauders NOT having more ranks (I leave it to you to figure out how 19 got to attack…I guess I went 10 wide with the Warriors) they run 97.2% of the time. This time they roll Insane Courage. 8 attacks, 4 hit, 2.668 wound so call it 3, and no Warrior saves. Just 2 warriors left, but on their way out the door the other three still get to swing. 10 attacks, .667 hit this time proper math says 7 wound, so 1 Marauder. 2 Warriors v. 1 Marauder…

That was actually much closer. In fact, this is the closest fight yet. Never mind the Warriors have 58% more points…

Mathhammer says heads up, equal points in Marauders loses quite handily to Chaos Warriors.  In every permutation. Outside forces could affect this...the aforementioned armies that ignore armor, for example. And that is where value must be found in Marauders because it certainly cannot be found in the WoC book.

It is always tough to know how to review a new book. On the one hand, it is almost impossible to do it without comparing it to the old book. "Oh, their points went up? Now they are terrible (even though they do the same thing). "Oh, that magic item went away? I needed it"!" without seeing the new one that is...maybe not better but perhaps equal yet different.

On the other hand, it is in many ways a new book. It is balanced against itself and other current books (in theory anyway; many people think Games Workshop puts little to no effort into balancing.) as opposed to against the previous incarnation or previous enemy books.

Of course, since I have a relatively extensive collection of Warriors of Chaos models, I look at it hoping that the models I have will still be useful, allowing me to field a competitive but not overwhelming army.

With that in mind, I did what I typically do; I casually glanced at the cover and then sped to the magic item section to see if the underappreciated, possibly overpowered Banner of the gods had made the cut.

See, in the last book I used that banner to essentially turn my entire army unbreakable. That meant you had to kill every model in a unit to get points for it. Against Chaos Warriors and Chaos Knights, their armor made that a difficult task. Marauders were so cheap they could be taken in ridiculous numbers. It was tough getting points off that version of the army. In comparison to that, the Crown of Command was ridiculously overpriced because it only worked for one unit.

Naturally, since I am literally the only person I ever heard of taking it, that banner was not popular enough to make the cut and is gone. So back to the front of the book to look at this one on its own merits.

The cover art is what it is; skulls hanging everywhere, a decent drawing of a fierce warrior whose like shall not appear anywhere within the pages and some nice flaming axes. The next 23 pages are a mix of bad story-telling and slurred artwork. It is not until page 24 that there is any value in the book. That is where we encounter the army-wide special rules.

The Gone

So long, farewell, and don't forget to write. The Will of Chaos rule is gone. Since it duplicated the mark of slaanesh and was invalidated by the mark of khorne it is no big loss, but the loss of flavor is a little unfortunate. I like the differentiation of things such as High Elf ASF v. Dark Elf Hatred, or the Beastmen Primal Fury rule for example.

Of course, the irony here is that I think I only ever rolled for the Will of Chaos once in the entire run, so it is not as if the loss is a huge deal.

The New and Changed

The Eye of the gods table is back and expanded, so now it is easier to get and some of the things are pretty cool. There is a remote chance (saw a guy math-hammer it out at like 2% per game) of gaining a D-prince. This is good if it replaces a unit champion...but a pretty bitter blow if you lose an exalted hero or chaos lord. See..you lose the points for whatever model gets the boon.

The marks are back and little changed; the mark of tzeentch is better as it helps with ward save re-rolls and channeling. Nurgle is better in close combat (a true -1 to hit instead of a hit to the WS which sometimes mattered not at all) and non-existent against shooting.

Special Characters: Lord Level

In the old book I used a handful of the special characters, and the only one that regularly made the cut was Wulfrik. He was good for bringing a large unit on the opponents back line and completely awful in combat. He has an awesome stat line and somehow managed to fluff his attacks every time out. I think he once killed his target and otherwise lost every time...including to a unit champion.

I cannot think offhand of any special characters that are no longer with up. Archaon is still overcosted and pretty much not worth taking. Galrauch came down in points and seems a good value. Kholex could wreck some things, though it is questionable if he is worth the hefty price tag.

Valkia got better but more expensive. Vilitch the Curseling seems unchanged off the top.

I could see myself taking Galrauch to fill two goals; use of a dragon and magic. Why play fantasy if you do not enjoy the elements of fantasy? People who whine about magic crack me up. Go play historical. Fantasy is all about swords, sorcery and monsters. At least, well-written fantasy is.

Unfortunately, they shafted the other Lord-level character I would take. Sigvald the Magnificent lost two valuable attributes; first off, he cannot re-roll his stupidity test. Having had him fail it at least once every game I took him, that hurts. Worse, they took away his special rule that let any unit with him have the strider rule.

In the end, the special characters in this section are pretty disappointing; they do not let you alter army structure, cover up holes in your list, or do anything particularly unique. Pass on all.

Generic Characters; Lord Level

The generic Chaos Lord remains what he was; a death merchant par excellence. He will almost always hit on 3s even against Lord-level characters, with high S and T, great I and lots of attacks. Pop him on something like the oft-maligned manticore and you have someone who can single-handedly wreck units of the enemies' deadliest fighters.

Chaos Sorcerer Lords got better as they now have access to better lores.

It is the D-Prince that really changed. I already took him fairly regularly. In the old book I would bump him up to a level 4, creating a highly mobile wizard that could wreck small units on his own in close combat or destroy big ones with magic. He was pricey.

Now he is cheaper, though somewhat weakened by Tendrils of tzeentch no longer being an option. On the bright side, he can now take armor and some magic items. Oh, and...now he is unbreakable. A 4 W, T5, WS 9 4+ 4++ close combat monster that is unbreakable? Oh, if I must...and of course there are rumored to be ways to make that 4++ a 3++ that re-rolls "1"s...which I will neither confirm nor deny. I will just say he is a much better general than the Chaos Lord ever could hope to be.

Special Characters: Hero Level

Wulfrik is far less useful than he used to be. Instead of his own Ambush type rule, now he uses the rule book version. The shift from "Come on the board at the side I want you" to "Come on a board side that may or may not be helpful" moves him from "a real positive every game" to "meh". Mobility is king when you have a slowish guy roaming away.

Throgg is popular in the Warhammer community at large. I am not a huge fan of Chaos Trolls and am unlikely to use him. Festus the Leechlord has some uses but the model is so repulsive I have a hard time seeing my way clear to using him.

Scyla Anfingrim is better; no random movement, the highest LD of any model in the book (yes, the highest you can get other than him is LD9, he has LD10) and pretty affordable. It is tempting to take him for the army general. But he is not very survivable and not a particularly scary close combat guy.

Overall I am a little disappointed. Wulfrik used to really be beneficial but now he is pretty meh. I like special characters, but these all feel...well...generic. Except Throgg, who I do not use.

Generic Characters: Hero Level

Not much change here except getting better. The Exalted heroes are still equal to or better than Lord-level characters for most other armies. The Sorcerers get access to better lores from the rule book. Bucket full of win.

Core

The natural inclination is to look at the Marauders first and think "this is a disaster".

Their points cost increased 50%. Their upgrades for Great Weapons tripled. The much less useful Flails (perhaps the single most over-rated item in the game) doubled. The extra hand weapon option is gone entirely...sure am glad I have dozens of models that are no longer game legal.   The cost for marks of khorne and tzeentch went up significantly for every model past 15.

And certainly, in a vacuum, comparing them to what they were last book will lead to this conclusion. However, in the new book, there are other benefits elsewhere in the book that may make these changes worthwhile.

First, the good; they are still flexible. You can still build a unit capable of putting out 31 S5 attacks with ablative wounds. Or you can build a tarpit with a 5+/5++ save. You can make them hard to hit or survivable. You can horde them up.You can make them one-hit wonders that count on breaking the opponent in the first round (flails, I am looking at you).

Next, the bad; if you could take a Marauder with 2 attacks at S5 that always strikes last and no save, how many points would it be worth to add a point of WS, S, T, I, LD and an extra attack that still always strike last while having a 4+ save? Would it be worth it at 8 points per model?

Or if you prefer defense and gave them light armor, shield and mark of tzeentch, so now they have S3, 1 attack, I4 and 5+/5++, how many points for the same adds of 1 WS, S, T, I, LD, extra attack, but a 3+/5++ save? Would it be worth an extra 7 points/model?

Let me put it in perspective for you; I routinely include a 20 strong of defensive minded troops with full command in every list. This prepares me for both Watchtower and Blood and Glory games.

Marauders: 230 points.

Warriors of Chaos: 340 points.

The Warriors are better in every stat except wounds and M. You have to be really, really tight on points to take the Marauders over the Warriors.

But wait; what if we go offensive, with great weapons, mark of tzeentch for maximum damage?

50 Marauders w/great weapon; no armor save, 2 attacks each. 580 points

50 Chaos Warriors with the benefits above (including the 4+ save) and 3 attacks each:980 points. Now there is a difference; but you will get more out of 30 horded up chaos warriors than 50 marauders for just 20 more points.

I can think of no sutuation where 50 Marauders >30 Chaos Warriors.

In fact, the Marauders seem to have one efficient use now; 10 of them can be a nice Mage Bunker.

On the bright side the Forsaken have moved into the Core section. They also gained Chaos Armor, so they now have a save. They are fast moving, have the potential to hit somewhat hard hitting. Then they crippled them by making them more expensive than a tooled up Chaos Warrior but not unbreakable.

Lets compare 10 Forsaken to 10 Chaos Warriors, both tooled up as much as possible:

Forsaken will end up with Mark of...lets say khorne to give them Hatred. 210 points for 15-25 attacks (assuming ranks of 5) at WS4, S4, 1 Static Combat Resolution.

Chaos Warriors with same mark, additional hand weapon to use their initiative; 210 points with full command. 25 attacks with higher WS and Initiative, 2 SCR.

But the Forsaken do have 2 extra points of movement...

I guess they would be good to go after war machines or chaff. They are fast enough to cause some problems and between their T4 and Chaos Armor, they have some survivability. But the opportunity cost of losing more Chaos Warriors hardly seems worth it.

Chaos Warhounds are now true core. Cheap, they have the same uses as forsaken.

Chaos Chariots are now core. Not a good idea to use entirely as your core, they can be a tremendous line breaker if used in conjunction with a unit that needs just the little extra oomph to win a combat. I love their inclusion here.

Marauder Horsemen are essentially the same.

Overall the core is outstanding. 6 choices and honestly, all 6 have value and could see use. Total win. If I sounded harsh above, it is only because math-hammer says most always it is better to take Chaos Warriors.

Special Units

If the hallmark of a good book is choices then the Warriors of Chaos have it in spades. The 6 Core choices are dwarfed by the whopping 9 Special choices. Lets see if they suffer the same problems.

First up are the H-striders of slaanesh. Faster than any other ground-based thing in the book, they have excellent I, above average Ws, and typical human S and T. They are fast cav, cause fear, are immune to psychology and have spears, or can replace that with the ASF weapon. Great for seeing off pesky war machines (if they were not cavalry), or chasing off other chaff.

Expensive.

And the opportunity cost is murder; they are competing for space with Chosen, Chaos Knights, Chaos Ogres, Dragon Ogres, Chaos Trolls, the Chimera, the Gorebeast Chariot and the Chaos Warshrine. Are they good enough at their role to make up for taking away points from some or all of those other things?

The Chosen lost the hated 3++ using the EotG table. However, they now get a roll pre-game instead of needing the War Shrine to take a shot at it...which makes sense since the War Shrine got shafted massively and can no longer affect units. More on that later.

Chosen are what they are; Chaos Warriors with 1 extra WS and the chance to roll on the Rewards table. Possibly a good choice, definitely in the discussion for best infantry unit in the game. With WS higher than many Lord-level characters, a reasonable strength and T, they are a threat to kill characters and wreck other elite units.  Their only downsides are they are slow and again, the opportunity cost.

Chaos Knights got slightly more expensive and lost the ability to take the mark of nurgle and then still gain frenzy with the banner of rage. But they are still awesome and well worth the points.

Chaos Ogres are pretty cool. I obviously like stacking up large numbers of good S attacks on a narrow frontage. Add impct hits (and potentially D3 impact hits) and stomp and you have a solid unit. They are a bit of an anomaly in the book with just a WS3. They also have a low I so taking the Great Weapons to give them S6 and letting them go beast hunting (which admittedly makes a mockery of their stomp) is a reasonable option.

My beloved Dragon Ogres are still awesome. With a 4+ save, 4 wounds, incredible M and good LD, they are awesome. With the option of Halberds they can keep their initiative and deal out 10 S6 attacks on 120mm frontage. Too bad they are nearly a third more expensive than GW wielding Chaos Ogres without having the impact hits.

Here is a really nice example of balance; I can see uses for both the Chaos Ogres and the Dragon Ogres. The cost difference seems more in line with the effectiveness differences. Great job.

Chaos trolls are another high attack, low WS, fast moving, hard hitting unit. I think Regeneration is better than the protection ffered the othter monsters, and I can see cases I would take a unit.

The Chimera is interesting. Large numbers of high S attacks are great. The ability to fly and deliver them is outstanding. Having a S4 breath weapon is so much better than a S3 breath weapon that I do think they are very comparable. Having armor save instantly classes him better than any monster in the Beastmen book (which is kind of like saying smelling a fart is better than smelling a skunk; better is true but not really relevant) LD 5? Suddenly he is almost unusable.

I can see a flying circus type thing where a D-Prince general teams up with the Chimera to fly around making combo attacks and wreaking havoc on unsuspecting units. Otherwise? His low LD means he is almost free points for the opponent.

The Gorebeast chariot hits like a ton of bricks. If you need a stormtrooper type unit, this is the one. Oddly, it is slower than the base chariot and with no marching, that can hurt but when it gets there it is going to do damage.

The Warshrine has two problems; first it is an ugly, repulsive model. Second, it no longer buffs units. The Giver of Glory rule is great for unit champs, a little risky for heroes and lords. 

It is hurt by the section it is in. It is arguably the worst choice in the section and, with its now limited usefulness, probably not worth taking.

Rare Units

once more with feeling; choice is good. 7 choices are here in the Rare section.

First off we have the H-cannon. It is almost the same...still the S5, now has to cause a casualty to force the panic check...but now it has a ward save. Well worth the points.

Second is the Dragon Ogre Shaggoth ho got a little bit cheaper. I already used him to good effect and see nothing to change my mind.

The Chaos Giant is like most giants, except his points are cheaper and he can be marked. If you like giants he is an excellent choice and he has his uses. 

Chaos Spawn remain too low WS to really be much use. They are good for holding up key enemy blocks with being unbreakable and have some use there, but with points at a premium in the rare section they will be tough to justify.

The Skullcrushers of khorne are interesting. They got weaker and more expensive than their release. Yet when you look at them as constituted, they are still an excellent value. Strong, fast, rugged, they can deal out a whooping after taking a ton of abuse. 

Any unit that can deal out 6 WS5, S5 attacks PER MODEL plus a stomp, so really 7 attacks while being T4 with a 1+ armor save is pretty solid...yeah, it would be nice to have the T5, but being a 3 wound moel is pretty stout. They are almost a must take and will chack in between 250 and 300 points for just 3 of them...and are STILL worth it. 

The Slaughterbrute model is ugly and expensive. The model itself is interesting. On its own it is madly overcosted. 4 WS3 attacks...meh. Even the 2 bonus attacks are not that impressive. I mean, sure, 6 attacks with S7/S5 is nice, but what are you going to hit? And his pathetic ld if his controller is killed ensures even a unit of skaven slaves has an outside chance at making him flee.

But couple him with a high LD, high WS controller and suddenly he is a beast, hitting on 3s, good LD. 

I really, really wanted to like the Slaughterbrute. Then I compared him to the Shaggoth. He is 1" slower, worse ws, one extra point of S, 1 fewer wound, 1 less I, 1 less attack pre-enhancement, lower LD and equal armor...but depending on someone else. Add an extra hand weapon to the shaggoth and the extra claws to the Slaughterbrute and they cost the same, both have 6 attacks...but the Shaggoth is slightly better unless you really, really need S7, and if so, take the Shaggoth with a GW for S8. 

If one was rare and the other special I could see taking them both...as is, I think the Slaughterbrute combination of expensive, confusing, ugly model and slight disadvantages mean it is a no-go. But certainly a valid choice anyway.

The Mutalith Vortex Beast seems like an epic fail If it does not get off its bound spell and get a lucky 6 it is a fairly weak choice. 3-8 S5 attacks are nothing to sneeze at...but at WS3 you are likely to need at least a 4 to hit. If you do 3 wounds a turn pre-Thunderstomp you are making hay. It is rugged enough to survive for a while, but there are better combat monsters. It really, really relies on getting its magic off.

Speaking of magic...

Lore of tzeentch

The lore attribute is kind of cool except it only works for th wizard that cast the spell so will only be useful on a high level wizard with multiple useful spells...which he will probably not have if marked tzeentch.

Warpfire has the possibility of doing an extra d3 wounds with no armor save. It has a better chance of giving the enemy regeneration. For the rest of the GAME, not turn. High risk, low reward. Very flavorful and fitting. But it really sucks.

Blue Fire is easy to get off. D6 S6 hits...so an average of 3.5 S3.5 hits. Typical magic missile. In my eyes not very useful.

Treason of tzeentch has possibilities. It stops Inspiring Presence and Hold Your Ground. Used in conjunction with the H-cannon it can run some units off the table pretty easily. Good synergy. If it were the Signature Spell the lore would be 100% better and probably useful.

Pink Fire can do some damage with its Sd6...but it is pretty iffy. First you have to get the spell off...then you have to roll well on the artillery die...then you have to roll a decent Strength. Pretty bleh.

Bolt of change is a magic missile bolt thrower that if you get lucky will be S10...and if not is S5. Unlikely to penetrate ranks very often. Worth taking though and easy to cast.

Glean Magic is situational; when it works it is devastating, when the opponent has no useful spells or is out of range it is awful. 

Firestorm is another d6 strength hit. Those are so iffy to use that I have an extremely low opinion of them. It is already so hard to get a spell off that you would like for it to be useful when you get it off. Random S spells are not the answer.

Infernal Gateway is weaker than it used to be. It still has the potential of doing 18 S10 hits...and if I ever hear of it happening I will be surprised because everything has to go right. But it should average 7 S7 hits and that is worth trying, even with the Warpflame idiocy.

Overall, tzeentch would be a half decent lore if you could choose your spells or be sure of getting treason, Infernal and glean. As is, a tzeentch marked sorcerer choosing between tzeentch and metal might lean towards metal.

Lore of nurgle

The lore attribute is one of those cool little extra sauce bits that are great when you get it...an extra point of T or an extra wound is always welcome, even if it only happens one in 6 times. That is strong.

The signature spell, Stream of Corruption, is a breath weapon that you have to cast. It is great...if you want your wizard within 6" of the enemy.

Miasma of Pestilence is great; lower your enemies' WS and I. Of course...do the Warriors, with their WS5, I4 really NEED to lower those two stats? they are likely hitting on 3 and being hit on 4 already. I guess against WS3 guys they now are hit on 5s so it has some value...and if you boost it, even more likely to be awesome. I have succeeded in the past in lowering an enemies WS to 0 with a high S unit and the result was utter carnage. Again, if this were the signature spell it would improve the lore tremendously.

Blades of Putrefaction giving poison is pretty useful. Guys who have lots of attacks and poison like the additional chances to wound...

Curse of the Leper is awesome. Bouncing T up or down by D3 is strong. 

Rancid Visitations is stronger than any magic missile tzeentch offered. Great magic missile.

Fleshy Abundance giving Regeneration 5+ is pretty cool as well.

Plague Wind can wreak havoc on low T 1 wound units...which, by the way, are not something the Warriors typically struggle against. Hordes do not bother the Warriors. 

Overall, a very strong lore. If the rules for these spells were in tzeentch it would make a ton more sense for fluff-bunnies who think tzeenth the master of magic should, you know, have strong magic. But from a game balance standpoint, having a wizard designed for close combat and giving him spells that make sense for it...well done.

Lore of slaanesh

The Lore attribute is another one designed to enhance the wizard's close combat effectiveness. If you are flying around a slaanesh D-prince, upping his WS, I and A makes sense. If you are a more typical sorcerer, sure, they are better than most wizards, but still easily slain even by Empire spearmen, for example, so getting them in close combat is not conducive to effective magic phases. Fail.

The signature spell is S3 armor piercing hits. Lame.

Acquiescence is pretty cool, giving them ASF and random movement. Easy to get off, good effect. Perhaps redundant in WoC, but cool nonetheless. If you plan lots of GW wielding Warriors, it would synergize beautifully with them.

Pavane is palame. Yay, less than 50% chance to do a wound. Not worth the casting.

Hysterical friendly gives either friend or foe frenzy and d6 s3 hits. Uhm...yeah. Is this the Orc and Goblin book with zany "help and hurt us both" nonsense?

Slicing Shards has the punchers chance of doing lots of damage if you can roll high on d6 and work with treason of tzeentch to make them keep failing LD tests. Realistically it will not do much damage.

Phantasmagoria could by that synergy, making them roll 3d6 for LD and discard the lowest. Lets look at the prerequisites; roll up both spells (or all three if you add tzeentch), get both or all three off in the same phase, profit. Good luck with that, let me know how it turns out for you that one game in a hundred when that combo goes off and wins you the game. 

Cacophonic Choir has potential; 2d6 hits that wound on 4+ with no armor saves and, if one wound caused, give ASL and random movement. Pretty funny to hit a steam tank or war machine with it. Especially a war machine...no firing for you next turn. 

Overall, Nurgle is strong, slaanesh has possibilities but the book lores are pretty meh.

Mutations and Powers

D-blade gives random attacks of 4-10 attacks. Could be useful. 

Flaming breath is awesome. 

Chaos Familir is great too. Scaled skin adds survivability. Give it to a D-prince and Chaos armor, mark of tzeentch for a 2+/4++ monstrosity....Burning body is great for hitting regenerating units. Soul Feeder can regenerate wounds in a hurry for a death merchant. 3rd Eye lets Ward Save rolls of 1 be re-rolled...pretty awesome. The other ones are pretty so so. But these are some great powers.

Artefacts

H-fire sowrd; flaming, multiple wounds, and 1 in 6 chance to do extra d6 S4 hits...but a 1 in 6 chance of wounding yourself. Very tempting.

Sword of Change; at first this was an auto-take and vastly undercosted. I was already thinking of how many chaos spawns it would create...then I re-read it. You have to kill a character or monster to have a 50% chance of creating a spawn. Still good...but situational. You have to be pretty sure your guy will kill characters and/or monsters.

Filth Mace gets better as the game goes on but requires mark of nurgle. Boo for requiring the mark.

Helm of Many Eyes is good for armor and ASF, bad for stupidity. Skull of Katam is almost an auto-take. Ooh...might lose a LD point. If your wizard's 8 is being counted on for LD in a unit of Chaos Warriors...LD 8...you already have issues. Take it, channel like mad.

Chalice of Chaos is another...uh....I mean, sure, maybe you get lucky that 1 in 6 times and your Exalted hero becomes a D-prince...oh, wait, less than 1 in 6, you have to pass a LD test....and you give up points for it. The other effects are often good, sometimes unnecessary. It is a high risk, modest reward item. Cheap though.

Pendant of slaanesh requires that mark. Expensive. Marginally useful 

Blasted standard is weaker than it used to be.

Banner of rag requires specific mark and only keeps you from losing frenzy. 

Nothing superpowered here, lots of situationally useful stuff. 

Summing Up

Overall, I really like the book. You have a ton of choices, very few if any "bad" choices...even Forsaken, which were horrifically badly done before, have their uses. You can play a variety of styles, have access to tools to deal with any opponent...but you are not overpowered. It appears to be a well written book.

Go with elite warriors and you will be small in number, tough to kill, but vulnerable to a bad round of combat. Go with Marauders and you will have better numbers but fall like flies. Pick monsters and you can do lots of high S attacks in narrow frontage. Go magic heavy and you can really manipulate stat lines.

Great work, excited to try them out.

2800 Beastmen V. Empire

2012 was a lost year in gaming. 4-1/2 games of Warhammer was all I got played. So I am making a conscious effort to make sure I get regular games in this year. With that in mind, I challenged any of the Starving Crazed Weasels to a game. Fullur accepted the challenge.

As usual, I put off the misery of list-building til the last possible second, then hastily threw one together Friday after racquetball. Perhaps feeling excessively euphoric after running the table, going 5-0 in cut throat and never letting Scott and Tim COMBINED score 15 in any single game, I built a nigh-invincible list of beastmen.

Then this morning on my way out to the game, thinking about some of the tweaks I had done, I realized the points did not make sense. Got to the game and re-calculated. Sure enough, that last tweak had put me over the allowance for characters.

So I hurriedly tried to tweak it and it just became a jumbled mess I was unhappy with and did not want to play.

So I went back to the Orc and Goblin army I played twice last year and greatly enjoyed.

Of course, when I figured out Fullur had put off list-building and was finishing his, I decided to try one more time to tweak the Beastmen.

Thing is, my first Beastmen build had two giants...way out of the ordinary for me. Giants stink up the joint FOR me but are devastating AGAINST me. I knew he would be playing the Steam Tank and thought it would be funny to club it with a special Giant attack.

Well, when I went to re-tweak the list I randomly started in the "Rare" section and took out a giant, put in a Jabberslythe. Flying enemies routinely give me problems and in the WoC game my D-Prince was awesome, flying around wreaking havoc. So I would use that power for me.

Ultimately I ended up with a playable list and we rolled up battleline.

As always, click the picture to see all of it

From my standpoint I made a couple errors in setup. The Giant went on my far right. The Steamtank ended up on his left. This happened because I dropped the giant early, my head in other places. However, the weaknesses were minimal and the overall set-up was exactly what I wanted.

My horded up Gors with a couple Wargors in it would control the center of the field. The 20-strong Gors with Great Bray-Shaman would protect their flank while having its own flank anchored on the Wizards tower. The Minotaurs could either sweep between the house and the tower or follow the 20 gore and get some nice combo charges.

Meanwhile, the Empire crowded itself. Post-game, Fullur was rather harsh on himself about his set-up, and it is easy to see why.

The Knights were off on a flank with one unit angled to join what would inevitable huge amount of combat in the center of the field. The Knights of the Inner Circle with their strider banner would come out of the Blood Forest and try to roll up a flank. They were probably a bit too far from the action but with a potential 14" move, not a huge deal.

It was in the center his problems existed. The gunners should have been 5 wide and 2 deep. That would have allowed him to put both combat units in front. Instead his 30 strong Greatswords took up space, the wide lines of gunners did likewise and he had no place for the spearmen flanked by 2 Halberd detachments except backing up the greatswords.

Strategically speaking this was disastrous. General Robert E Lee won a lot of nearly unwinnable battles simply by having numerical superiority at the point of contact despite being outnumbered by far in any given battle.

Clogging up his close-combat units like this would give me both numerical superiority in the overall battle AND superiority at the point of contact.

The tank could conceivably move really quick so putting it on the edge of the field was fine; this kept it away from my units strong enough to be dangerous to it (the Giant and Minotaurs) and potentially let it shoot horizontally into my lines.

He won the roll to go first

EMPIRE TURN 1
Marius, even with the BSB re-roll, failed his test. Ranting and raving, he stupidly moved forward 4". Fullur had planned to march close to 10 to get into combat quickly (and set up turn 2 flank charge with his Knights, incidentally) and this unfortunate roll disrupted that plan.

The steam tank used 3 SP to roll forward 8" and get in position to fire down my line, potentially doing lots of damage.

His 10 knights moved to get in position to countercharge me if I charged his greatswords or charge my flank if I failed a charge. He carefully weighed his options with the Knights of the Inner Circle and ultimately put them at a range where I would be statistically likely to fail to charge with my Giant...but have to try anyway lest his knights charge me and get the strength bonus.

He had no magic he even wanted to attempt. I used the Chalice of Dark rain on the theory it looked like we would be in combat on turn 2; he was moving aggressively and I had every intent of attempting to get close enough to ensure he could charge next turn.

His cannon was still able to fire, hit 2 Gor but killed just 1. The tank failed its Chalice roll and could not fire. I like my use of it. Probably the tank does 3 - 5 casualties at most...but with a 1-use item, you use it when you can. There was no guarantee it would not be most valuable right now.

BEASTMEN TURN 1
I wwas going to play aggressively as well. I rolled I think a 10 and hit his Knights of the Inner Circle. I had high hopes for this battle. His S3 or 4 guys should struggle to wound me and I was stubborn on a 10.

Then I made a move that could make or break the entire game. My Minotaurs had line of sight to the flank of his other knights. He thought I could not fit between the Wizard Tower and the house, but I had checked prior to setting the minos up and knew they did fit. I declared a charge needing I think an 8 or so...and rolled a 10. I passed the Dangerous Terrain tests for rampaging over obstacles and slammed into his flank.

It was at this moment the Knights wished it was night

I marched the Gor horde forward and moved the 20 gor to flank charge the greatswords after they slammed into the Horde.

Then I thought carefully about the Jabberslythe. I did not want his tank grinding me but I needed to get to the cannon. Aha! The Aura of Madness rule could force a wound or two on it with luck...I checked distance from his BSB...out of range...sweet! I aggressively planted the Jabberslythe in front of his handgunners. I would take a round of shooting and then probably wreck that flank with my monster.

To your uneducated eye that looks like a Necrosphinx...but a Jabberslythe it is

In my ecstatic state over making two possible but unlikely charges, I completely forgot to move either my Chariot or Ungor Raiders.

Magic: I rolled 9, got 2 from the Herdstone and channeled one. For the first time ever, I maxed out my power dice.

He quickly passes his first few Aura tests...and then his cannon fails so badly it is gone, and his Master Engineer thinks that was such a good idea, he also dies of fear. This is instantly my most successful magic phase ever and I have not cast a spell yet.

I boosted the Mystifying Miasma at his knights facing the minotaurs. He could not dispel it...all 4 attributes decreased by 2. He stopped me adding to their misery with the Curse of Anreheir, but I gave Wyssans Wildform to the Minotaurs and then cast the Miasma at the base level on his greatswords.

My most successful magic phase ever with magic being cast. Just brilliant.

The Knights and Giant went simultaneously. He got 3 wounds through. Ouch, that was....unexpected. Then his horse put a 4th wound on me. Super ouch. I would have expected 4 wounds if he had S6 from the charge...not from S3.

I rolled Jump Up & Down. Between 2 and 12 S6 hits. This would be fun. I passed my Fall Over test....and then rolled snake-eyes. 2 hits. Sigh. At least both wounded...but he saved one. Fortunately, I passed my break test but that was a tough pill to swallow. I should have done way more than 2 wounds. And taken less than 4.

Lets hope the boosted Minotaurs could make up for it against his weakened Knights. The Doombull has potentially 3 impact hits; it should not surprise you to learn he elected to do 1. It wounds. The other two minos also wound with their impact hits. He promptly saves the S6 hit (whch should have been S7...) and fails the S5s..two knights down. I am good with that.

The Bloodkine kills his unit champ in the challenge. The Doombull kills 4 knights (2 saved or it would have been a massive 6...even so, killing 4 Knights with one round of attacks is nothing short of awesome), the regular guys finish off the unit and I overrun something like 2".

EMPIRE TURN 2
Marius passes his test. Empire's turn to charge.

The Greatswords go after my 20 strong unit. I instantly realize my mistake and assume my Great Bray-Shaman will be leaving the table soon. I just hope somehow, someway I can survive the combat and find a way to stay in place.

Meanwhile his Spearmen charge the Jabberslythe. Whoops...did not anticipate that, either.

His tank thunders along 12", getting ready to heat-blast my Gor horde.

I stop the first two priest attempts to buff his Greatswords, using all my dice to do so thinking he only has one Hammer of Sigmar. Oops, he uses his OTHER Battle Priest to cast it on the Spearmen. I debate using my Dispel Scroll but think I might need it at a more key point in the battle so let it go.

The Steam from the tank hits 9 Gor but can kill just 1. His handgunners put two wounds on my Minotaurs. Could be painful, but not too bad...I will be wiping those handgunners out with said Minotaurs on my next turn.

He chooses the combat with the Jabberslythe first. His Captain promptly wounds the Jabberslythe whose spurting blood bile cannot wound him back. The Slyth is angry though, and hits all 5 attacks, killing four puny humans.

Said Puny Humans then wound the Slythe twice more, taking two sputing blood bile wounds in return for their efforts. I roll a 2 for Thunderstomp and both wounds...and I win the combat. Being steadfast, he stands but I am not sure how I feel about this; they wounded the Slythe thrice in one round with lowered WS. What will they do at full strength?

His Knights revert to form this turn, doing not one wound. I jump up and down and this time do not roll snake-eyes...I roll a 3. Yes, with between 4 and 24 potential attacks, I get 5. Grr. Anyway, I naturally fluff one of the 3 hits but he does me one better, failing both save attempts and failing his Steadfast LD test, then getting run down by the Giant who runs into the blood forest.

Guffawing madly, the Giant runs into the Forest to check his height against a tree

It is only fair to point out that each time I rolled for "Jump up and Down" I was literally imitating the Giant by "guffawing madly". I can only assume the dice punished me for this with their pathetic rolls...and Fullurs' dice rewarded me for the entertainment value by rolling even more pathetically.


Marius can only do 1 wound to my unit champ. It is enough to keep me from attacking him, but no overkill. I start to feel hope I might be able to keep this combat close and find a way to not flee.

His Captain and Warrior priest each kill a Gor. Still not too bad...his three heroes did a combined 3 wounds. They should have one 5 or 6 I should think. I am doing well here.

My Great Bray-Shaman shows them how a hero should fight, killing the Warrior Priest. Fullur looks crest-fallen....that was a big, unexpected loss.

I have primal fury for the first time ever. I have passed it. I roll 11 attacks...and 2 hit. Then I reroll and now 8 hit. Much better. I inflict 5 wounds, but he saves 4. My hope flickers. I needed to do a few wounds there to have any hope.

His Greatswords only do 4 wounds, but it is more than enough. I decide to break...and roll snake-eyes for distance. What is going on with these rolls?

He overruns and is safe from my horde. I am not ecstatic about that.

Beastmen Turn 2
The Minos make the obvious charge into his handgunners. I use the tactical wheel to get in his center and close the door, now in position to overrun into his halberd detachment.

The Gor horde makes the less likely but ultimately successful charge to support the Jabberslythe.

I move the chariot out of his charge range with the Greatswords, move my Ungor raiders to get a shot at them, move the Giant towards the combat with the Minos.

Without my Great Bray-shaman I have 2 level one Shadow Bray-Shamans with Miasma. He stops the first, but I get the boosted version off against his Spearmen, then max it with a 3, reducing him to zero WS, I...he is in trouble.

The Minotaurs are putting out ridiculous numbers of attacks between their base, frenzy, and Bloodgreed. The handgunners melt away without doing any harm and the Minos slam into the Halberd detachment.

Meanwhile, the Wargor kills his Captain in a challenge, my other wargor wounds his battle priest, the Gor kill 10 spearmen, the Jabberslythe kills 5, does another with a thunderstomp (in two attempts)...he cannot roll insane courage...I slam into his other handgunners...

The Gor horde hits the flank of his Halberd detachment in their overrun. This will not end well for his out-matched unit.

We look at the field. His 25ish remaining Greatswords with Marius, 2 Halberd detachments (one of which has about 5 seconds left to live, the other about 6 seconds) and Steam tank against...my entire army less the 20 Gor and Bray Shaman.

I ask him if he feels like he has any chance in this game. No. It would not be fun for him and, for that matter, me. All that is left is tabling him and what is the fun in that? The outcome is a foregone conclusion so we pack it in.


What went right
Everything. My flank charge with the Minos wrecked a key unit of his Knights and ensured that I was in combat with my strongest unit constantly. My spells were well-timed and devastating. My horde buffed with a couple Wargors was death incarnate, wiping out everything in its path. My Giant single-handedly took out his second strongest unit WITH HORRIFIC ROLLS. His two cannons (tank and actual cannon) combined to do two wounds....the same number as the rest of his shooting combined.

My plan worked pretty much the way I drew it up; the horde in the center controlled space and, even when I unexpectedly saw him bypass the horde with his best unit, I knew I had the rest of his army now in bad, bad position. Magic weakened him, sheer volume of attacks finished him.

What went wrong
The aforementioned pathetic dice rolls by the giant, the large numbers of unexpected wounds suffered by the Giant and Jabberslythe. And file this under what went right...those never hurt.

The one truly harmful thing was his taking out my Great-shaman and Gor contingent. And even that was not too bad...it took his Greatswords out of the active battle for at least 2 turns and more likely 3 so they would never be a factor in the battle again.

It was a fun game and it was brutal watching a Doombull-led, frenzied, Bloodgreed enhanced Minotaur unit take on a weakened Knight unit and then just wreck anything softer without even trying.

I am likely to try a Jabberslythe again. His lack of any save at all is a severe hit, but he performs a valuable role and, against low S troops that have low volumes of attacks, he has a chance to do some massive damage.

I am unlikely to lay without taking a herdstone and two or three bray shamans throwing around Mystifying Miasma and Wussans Wildforms at every opportunity. Turning dangerous units into wimpy punching bags is unbelievably strong.

I do enjoy the Beastmen army. Of course, their battle plan is pretty simple; weaken w/magic, get into close combat, deal out massive quantities of high S attacks. Rinse in blood, repeat.


Thanks for the game Fullur and you will get me next time.