Saturday, October 17, 2009

We are all wrong...

Want to read a four page thread wondering if the Lizardmen are strong enough to be one of the "3 massively overpowered army lists"?

Go here

I particularly like the guy who makes I think close to the only reference to my beloved Warriors of Chaos in the entire thread...and it is not a nice one :-) (though another guy mentions Chaos Knights for their support role)


kennyB said...

Warriors of Choas are mentioned a couple times throughout the thread. But it seems that no one has actual experience with or against them. The thing about the thread is multifold (typed twofold, then threefold, then realized it's morefold)

1. There is a general consensus that Daemons are above all other armies, even in the "Big 3".

2. There is a general consensus that there is a big 3 and it goes
Best:Daemons of Chaos
Good/Better:Vampires or Dark Elves, pretty much a tie in that forum.

3. Nobody even uses the other armies so it's not going to change anytime soon. If over 1/2 of every tournament is the same 2-3 armies, it is probably the top players playing them and even if not, with that much of a showing they are going to occupy at the very least, 1/2 of the upper tier rankings. So what are the odds another army will get ranked highly unless it has a huge showing as well? Or a top general takes one such as the guy that one the last 2k8 GT with the High Elves (though on the forums he was referred to it was apparent he is considered one of the best generals in WHFB).

4. Some people think Lizardmen are an upper, but not top, tier army, roughly even with Empire and a third which I have forgotten now (brettonia?). I have held this opinion, only believing that the Lizard's shooting is lame and they are overpriced on several units. If you look at the list I built, it sounds a lot like what they suggest the tournament armies are. Elitist units, Big Slann, and Engines. A ridiculous bit of magical powerhouses and unstoppable special attacks, with hard to kill mages and strong close combat troops.

kennyB said...

5. Some posters (possibly me) obviously do not know as much as they want to portray. Such as the clowns who suggest the DE heroes can stand up to other armies heroes. The best you can do is try to survive against other peoples heroes. With low S and T, and being forced to choose between building a shell character or a vicious attack character, it is very restricting. The lance they brought up to eliminate armour saves (Caledor's Bane) only works on the turn you charge. So you better hope you kill whatever your attacking with your 4 attacks before they hit back. (the lance grants Killing Blow on the turn it charges). And I can guarantee if you attack the Slann they mentioned in the post the lance was brought out, you will not kill him. His Unit strength makes him immune to killing blow and when he hits you back, you take 4 wounds. Not gonna work out well for the DE. So while the DE heroes are not well suited for taking out other close combat oriented heroes, this is not a deal breaker as they are good in plenty of areas. And they are sufficient to take out other armies mages most of the time. As long as it's not DoC, VC, Lizards, or WoC, since their casters are all pretty good/tough fighters.

6. I believe I am at worst, a mediocre player, and I have never beat the Dwarves. If you build a shooty army against them, they have better/more powerful shooting and have higher toughness than your weapons if you DO get within the 24" range of the Elves crossbows, and Dwarves have decent/good armour saves, unlike the elves who only get Light Armour, useless against Dwarves. If you build a dodgy army, it doesn't matter because Dwarf Artillery and Anvil will hit you anyway. If you build a magic army the dwarves have ridiculous MR, (and you aren't playing a tournament army anyway if your relying on magic with a non-magic requiring army like the VC) you will still get stomped (according to the late 2k8 GT's and top generals). So to put down the Dwarf player who said he does not fear the DE's is laughable. It's just the Dwarves won't get played because at the very least they are not perceived as a "Big" army, and at the worst, they are bad. I personally believe they are quite good and have been going over them extensively, and think I have a devestating build that will take out just about anybody. I imagine even the DoC based on the paper logistics... ;)

7. I hope GT reports start getting posted soon with reports from the top ranking players so we can get their thoughts of their opponents, as well as strategy and army lists, and I hope there is a varied showing so we get an idea of whether or not any other armies will get played before the release the next ruleset in the next couple of years.

kennyB said...

This may be the greatest quote I have read on a Warhammer Forum:
Firstly a magical bow may fire magical missiles but it doesn't fire Magic Missiles. The missiles may be magical in nature but they certainly aren't spells of the variety of Magic Missiles. E.g. a small axe thrown by a native american indian is a missile and it is a tomahawk but it sure as *can be* isn't a Tomahawk Missile.

Darth Weasel said...

partially got my point...mostly I was pointing out the sheer volume of the thread dealing with people arguing the VC were no good...only to have it pointed out they and the DE fight it out for second in every tournament behind the DoC.

The Lizardmen do not need the shooting is their point I think. They get criticized for being able to ramp up stegadons and so forth in a points denial unkillable form.

Dwarfs in the tournament scene are not successul at all and the tournament scene is what they are discussing.

Part of why I really, really hope we never show legit tourney style lists around our games. I am hoping we stay away from the power gaming and that is why I am trying a few different things myself, trying to soften my list to compete with say...the Tomb, lets be reasonable, to compete with an Ogres army without having no chance against our stronger armies.

And the VC are stronger than we give them credit for...

yeah, that quote had me cracking up, along with their cracks (m ight be in a different thread) about the competence of the rules writers

kennyB said...

The thing about most armies is that there is such a low or non-exstant showing that all we know for sure is they are not played. It doesn't necessarily mean that they are not good and couldn't come out of the gate and surprise people, it's just that when people find something they judge stronger than other's, they flock to it and abandon all others. I was reading the build report by a GT champ (Anthony Spiers, bigtime on WHFB GT scene from what I have read) awhile ago and he pointed out that he only playtested against 3 armies, b/c he knew that's who he would be up against. And in the GT, he faced only those 3 armies. That's pretty ridiculous. Even after those 3 books came out, the High Elves were winning the Official GT's, and Empire was still placing. Search "Warhammer GT Results". It doesn't help that GW announced there would be no official GT's in 2009, but it still stands, High Elves are able to beat the big 3 in tournaments, just perhaps they require a better generalship than the others? And VC is very high, but must be played better and a little luckier in getting spells through. To me, it still shows that some armies are just plain better (big 5? HE, DoC, DE/VC, ?Lizard?), but a great general with any army (except TK and maybe O&G, as they are too luck reliant, though you like to point out the White Dwarf battle where the O&G were beating the DE in a tournament style game) can beat a mediocre general with a great army. And when I look at the weaknesses of those armies, I know of another army that is particularly good for at least 3 of them, and probably all 5, and I am willing to try them out to find out for sure. So who wants to play one of the big 5 against my Dwarves in a 2250 battle?

Darth Weasel said...

I think a good analogy might be Raw deal. I always thought the Rock, Triple H and Stone Cold had what it took to be among the championship decks. Great card support, (except for Triple H) great abilities...and no championship wins.

Tourney lists would show small, small numbers of them being played.


Because it was much easier to win with other decks.

Occasionally there would be a the Buh-Buh deck that nearly won it all.

But for the most part, big tourney after big tourney would have the same decks in the top 16.

It wasn't that other decks COULDN'T was that everyone thought the top tier decks were more powerful and easier to win with.

At the same time, our group would regularly show up with "lower tier" decks like Matt Hardy, Triple H, 2MPT, Buh Buh, JBL, and so forth.

Which i always thought was great. And hope to keep seeing in Warhammer.

Which is one reason I want to power down my boys to the point where say...Kev's Ogres are at a 50-50 rate against them.

Darth Weasel said...

Oh, and one reason I suspect people do not play the WoC is because their weaknesses are so easy to exploit. They are playable for 2 things; really powerful magic and really good armor saves.

The Magic is easily stopped by several armies...High Elf, Lizardmen, Dark Elf all come to mind (Drain Magic, Hotek, and the Slann ability that essentially negates an enemy spellcaster).

The armor saves are invalidated by so many armies...teh Engine "no armor save allowed" stuff that rules against large units of high armor guys, the various war machines that allow no armor saves, and so forth.

I think WoC are indeed pretty close to good enough to use in those tournaments, but if I were a serious tournament player, no way would I use an army that 2/3rd of the armies I expect to see frequently have easy ways of negating my best features.

On tournament levels, people do a lot of march blocking, redirecting charges, and so forth, so they require a lot more talent than I possess anyway

Fullur said...

1. Lizardmen casters are actually pretty squishy other than the Lord-level Slann.
2. I think the Engines are overrated. All you need is a shooter that can target individual models (like an Empire Hochland long rifle) an large block of high armor warriors, or a hero with a No Armor Saves Allowed weapon who can challenge the Skink priest and the engine is done. Yes, the Stegadon will still have to be dealt with, but the major threat, the engine, is done for.
3. Slann should never be placed on their own and are placed in the 2nd row of Temple Guard units (where they should be) so getting a killing blow capable hit with that lance would be pretty difficult anyway.
4. What Slann ability negates enemy casters?

Darth Weasel said...

I have probably the least squishy casters...T4 with Chaos Armor for a 4+ save and usually marked with tzeentch to add a 6+ ward save...better if I want. In defense of my army, I cannot think of anyone with tougher casters. MAYBE the Vampires...but I would at the very least say mine are AS tough if not tougher.

Yet I have taken a lot of damage from spells and only occasionally been able to deal it back.

But as for the Engines, I have a hard time saying they are over rated since they basically massacred me with little to no help. The Slann hit me with a couple of spells that reduced one unit to just 3 guys (no armor saves allowed) and the Terradons and Skinks took out my Shaggoth. Other than that, it was essentially all War Engines doing me in.

I had the Skink Priest right where I wanted him. Locked in a challenge with my Prince, for 9 rounds of combat the second time. And did all of 1 wound. Yeah, all you might have to do to negate the engine is kill him...but that is far easier said than done.

The Slann have some ability that can make it more difficult for an enemy caster to cast. Not sure what it is, but if I recall correctly, he used it a couple times. Usually did not need it because he had the other ability where he generated so many cast and dispel dice that he regularly saved 3 or 4 every turn so he always had double digit dispel dice in addition to his scrolls.

Pretty much the only 2 ways to kill the Slann are incredibly difficult; kill his protectors to the last Saurus, then he is easy meat...or somehow break a unit that is stubborn with LD 8 or 9 rolling on 3 dice. :-)

kennyB said...

Slann aren't always easy meat. They may not do damage, but they can be made incredibly difficult to do damage against. =O They are pretty versatile and cool! =D

Darth Weasel said...

I love the Slann. I love Lizardmen as a whole and the moment Phillip turns his head, I will swipe them...unless I steal Rick's High Elf army first...dragon ridgin mages, all the cavalry you want, shooting, always strike first great weapons? Yes please!

kennyB said...

In regard to the High Elves:
also being able to nerf dragons breath AND fire, and Dark Elves Hatred as well as any armies' psychology (hatred, frenzy, etc)! I think there is a reason they won so many GT's!